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[Music]

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welcome back to liminal frames this is

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episode nine of the show

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nine feels like a good number

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i've had a good week exo how has your

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week been

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well my week's been good but there's a

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lot going on in my life right now and um

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some exciting things i'll be able to

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talk about more in the future but uh

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happy to step in and join you on this

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episode

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nice

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all right well i already know that

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you're a future human so uh hopefully

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it's

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out

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exposed

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secret is out of the bag

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i really enjoyed your most recent

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episode on point of convergence on the

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breakaway civilization hopefully we can

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talk about that at some point

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either on this episode or down the road

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but today we are going to get into

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what i guess we're calling or we've

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talked about calling civil disagreement

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or on discourse and disagreement

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this is a pretty topical

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uh sort of discussion because

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as i think folks know

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uh

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our social media spaces our current

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climate in in the world is uh you know

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pretty polarized there's a lot of

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you know you know passions are high and

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when it comes to beliefs and uh

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and we we often sort of find ourselves

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uh on opposite sides of of a perspective

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and the way in which we

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engage with each other either in person

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uh or in in our social media spaces you

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know it's very much

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i think changing i think it's hard to

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argue that uh we have not been

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influenced by these technologies we have

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not been influenced by uh just the

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things that are happening in our world

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today with uh the pandemic and uh you

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know climate change and

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civil unrest and and you know the war in

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ukraine there's there are a lot of

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things going on and you know of course

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there are things happening at every

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moment in history

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but uh for whatever reason i think maybe

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because of our

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hyper connectivity uh the things that

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are happening right now feel a lot more

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uh salient and personal and and that

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kind of keeps us on edge

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also in recent news we if anybody who's

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been in the twitter sphere

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has been paying attention you know that

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uh elon musk has uh has offered to buy

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twitter and it sounds like they've

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accepted that proposal

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and elon is a i know him in and of

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himself he's a polarizing figure

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uh but he's made it very clear that what

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he wants to try to do with twitter

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is make it a space that is

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more pro free speech

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and that has been interpreted uh from

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both sides of kind of the political

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aisle in different ways

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some people are uh you know heading for

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the exits uh from twitter others are

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coming back uh to twitter uh you know

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it's definitely impacting the uh the

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feel

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um and i've seen folks even on both

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sides of the aisle here also you know

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kind of champion this move and think

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that it could be a net positive so uh

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but at the end of the day it does feed

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into this topic generally and that's you

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know how do we

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kind of engage in a discussion

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that can lead to a meaningful

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conversation how do we

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engage when we disagree with one another

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how do we

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do that in a way that can be uh

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productive

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know that's quite a lot to sort of set

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the table

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but uh what's your take on

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the sort of way in which we engage with

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each other today uh in particular when

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we don't happen to agree

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right well i wrote down 37 points you

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made so i'll make sure i put it based on

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each one

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excellent um

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yes it's a that's a very loaded question

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um

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the the

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the thing with elon musk is is just a

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fascinating

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historic moment in so many ways there's

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there's so many you know implications

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ramifications of that

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some people point to the fact that you

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know

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a very

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short list of billionaires

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now own huge amounts of our media right

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newspapers

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online platforms uh etc tv networks

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and that in itself is somewhat

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concerning even if you're whether you're

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pro elon musk or not in terms of the

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free speech versus

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more control over what's said uh it's

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still somewhat concerning that you know

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four or five guys which is pretty much

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what it is

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based on their preferences can shape

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the nature of our media spectrum

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entirely for everyone else right that's

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that's just concerning in itself even if

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one of them happens to champion your

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particular perspective surely all of us

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should be concerned of that kind of

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oligarchical kind of you know set up

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um i think about that um i think about

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how

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you know in the the 1950s 60s 70s 80s

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even

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you know you had your walter cronkites

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of the world everyone tuned in to one or

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two or three or four

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tv networks and that became the sum

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total of how information was released

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and how people consumed information and

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media and to just to a great degree

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their understanding of what was going on

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in the world and what reality was right

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and then we had you know cable

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television and then the internet

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and now we have a situation where we

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have

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this polarization and culture wars

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where people don't just

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listen to the same media and draw

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different conclusions

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they consume completely different media

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and

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therefore exposed to completely

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different media set or data sets about

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what's even happening

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and they tend to you get this kind of

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compounding

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echo effect echo chamber effect where

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you're only talking to people who

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already agree with you

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and so

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and that tends to

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further polarize

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everything for instance in our country

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and to the point where not only do you

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see the other political party for

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instance

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as

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not being uh not holding the right

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beliefs about a political persuasion but

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you suddenly identify them with

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everything dark and demonic and

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sexually perverse like you just you make

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them the darth vader you know of the

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world kind of thing

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um

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partly because just you know from a from

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a sheer psychological point of view it

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makes you feel better about yourself if

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you can make you know you feel like

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scott lou skywalker if you make the

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other darth vader right

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and that happens on both sides

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to be quite frank as you like to say um

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so

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it is a very

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very complex situation when you then get

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into a situation where

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and this

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you know relates to elon musk stepping

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in because you've got these media

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platforms like twitter

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that are that have effectively become

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the town square right we we voice

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opinions

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and so

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this balance between free speech versus

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protecting vulnerable communities is

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sort of like at the heat of this right

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and and and um

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and even people who claim they are for

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free speech often what they're really

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saying is i want my particular free

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speech to be out there and they're

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they're very comfortable quashing

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somebody else's free speech and again i

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see that on both sides of the equation

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so

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there's even a lack of like consistency

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logical consistency and self-awareness

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going on

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on mass levels

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it's it's a conundrum and um

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and when a private media platform

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suddenly feels like it's its job to be

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the moral police for the entire society

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on the one hand i understand why they

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feel that need

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because what's said on their platform

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can impact elections and everything else

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at the same time is that really their

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role and if it's not their role whose

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role is it you know these are these are

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really uh

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fascinating and complex questions and

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i'm looking forward to us uh unwinding a

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bit tonight

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definitely well you know what i find

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interesting about this too is that when

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the the climate now

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it's not uncommon

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in conversation even with a stranger

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for you to quickly get to a place where

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you're both saying

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something is wrong here you know

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something just doesn't seem right uh the

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way that

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the

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social media

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and in our media generally

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people seem to be

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aware on on some

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you know sort of cognitive level that

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that

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really a representation of how

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dialogue truly is with another person

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that it's like a characterized

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characterized version of

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of dialogue so it's like we all on an

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individual basis i think acknowledge and

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can readily see there's a problem here

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with the way that it manifests

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on these platforms

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but we

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seemingly

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you know lack the

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collective power uh to sort of

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effectuate

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something that would would be a

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meaningful change

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uh influencing the the needle to

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something that would be

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you know kind of more uh friendly or or

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productive

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and i recognize too that there are

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just as you pointed out there are a lot

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of power dynamics here

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you know so it's um

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it's not necessarily true that the

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majority is right you know

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the majority

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in fact we have lots of instances in

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history when majorities in certain

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societies

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have

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really been you know kind of wrong

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in various ways

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when it comes to their marginalization

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of

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you know i think we would objectively

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look at that and say that's that wasn't

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okay

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uh so

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00:10:42,230 --> 00:10:40,720
you know creating platforms that really

292
00:10:46,310 --> 00:10:42,240
just sort of

293
00:10:48,069 --> 00:10:46,320
uh elevate a majority consensus opinion

294
00:10:50,310 --> 00:10:48,079
isn't necessarily

295
00:10:51,910 --> 00:10:50,320
you know the best thing and these are

296
00:10:53,910 --> 00:10:51,920
questions that i think

297
00:10:56,069 --> 00:10:53,920
technology companies are also not

298
00:10:58,550 --> 00:10:56,079
necessarily well equipped to answer you

299
00:11:00,470 --> 00:10:58,560
know they're not in the business of

300
00:11:02,389 --> 00:11:00,480
uh trying to

301
00:11:05,750 --> 00:11:02,399
uh

302
00:11:08,310 --> 00:11:05,760
you know sort of run societies or or you

303
00:11:10,150 --> 00:11:08,320
know speak on behalf of of states

304
00:11:11,269 --> 00:11:10,160
interacting with other states and state

305
00:11:12,470 --> 00:11:11,279
power

306
00:11:15,190 --> 00:11:12,480
you know they're in the they're in the

307
00:11:16,470 --> 00:11:15,200
free marketplace uh of ideas and they're

308
00:11:18,630 --> 00:11:16,480
just kind of in the business of making

309
00:11:20,790 --> 00:11:18,640
money so they're they're

310
00:11:22,310 --> 00:11:20,800
operational incentives are really quite

311
00:11:23,190 --> 00:11:22,320
different or at least in some ways

312
00:11:26,470 --> 00:11:23,200
different

313
00:11:28,389 --> 00:11:26,480
uh than our governments um

314
00:11:29,670 --> 00:11:28,399
and so we're kind of placing upon them

315
00:11:32,790 --> 00:11:29,680
this burden

316
00:11:34,790 --> 00:11:32,800
of having to figure this out on the fly

317
00:11:37,430 --> 00:11:34,800
uh and preserve you know at least in the

318
00:11:39,030 --> 00:11:37,440
u.s you know preserve our republic uh

319
00:11:41,110 --> 00:11:39,040
you know if if we feel that that

320
00:11:42,470 --> 00:11:41,120
republic is under threat and then there

321
00:11:44,310 --> 00:11:42,480
are those that would say you know maybe

322
00:11:46,470 --> 00:11:44,320
it needs to be right maybe

323
00:11:48,790 --> 00:11:46,480
we need to uh you know kind of let these

324
00:11:50,389 --> 00:11:48,800
sort of things play out as they as they

325
00:11:52,310 --> 00:11:50,399
will and

326
00:11:53,590 --> 00:11:52,320
let let the sort of chips fall where

327
00:11:55,509 --> 00:11:53,600
they may

328
00:11:57,829 --> 00:11:55,519
um i don't know there doesn't seem to be

329
00:12:00,629 --> 00:11:57,839
like any ready easy answers here whether

330
00:12:02,310 --> 00:12:00,639
you think elon musk is you know a great

331
00:12:05,110 --> 00:12:02,320
guy or not certainly this seems like a

332
00:12:07,509 --> 00:12:05,120
smart guy um but i don't think you know

333
00:12:09,509 --> 00:12:07,519
elon has a silver bullet here to solve

334
00:12:11,190 --> 00:12:09,519
this problem

335
00:12:13,430 --> 00:12:11,200
yeah it's uh

336
00:12:15,190 --> 00:12:13,440
by the way as a quick aside uh based on

337
00:12:16,550 --> 00:12:15,200
our our usual topic of the ufo

338
00:12:18,470 --> 00:12:16,560
phenomenon which we'll move to in a

339
00:12:20,949 --> 00:12:18,480
minute i've actually heard people

340
00:12:22,949 --> 00:12:20,959
somewhat only half jokingly say they

341
00:12:25,910 --> 00:12:22,959
wonder if elon musk exactly is actually

342
00:12:27,030 --> 00:12:25,920
an alien perhaps a reptilian um

343
00:12:28,710 --> 00:12:27,040
but uh

344
00:12:30,870 --> 00:12:28,720
yeah yeah it is interesting and like you

345
00:12:32,949 --> 00:12:30,880
touched on with the the media platforms

346
00:12:34,150 --> 00:12:32,959
thing in many ways

347
00:12:35,670 --> 00:12:34,160
it's

348
00:12:37,910 --> 00:12:35,680
living in an environment that has

349
00:12:38,870 --> 00:12:37,920
superseded the nation-state structure

350
00:12:41,350 --> 00:12:38,880
right

351
00:12:43,269 --> 00:12:41,360
so we still have nation-states but when

352
00:12:45,670 --> 00:12:43,279
you have

353
00:12:47,430 --> 00:12:45,680
actors within certain countries trying

354
00:12:49,350 --> 00:12:47,440
to manipulate the

355
00:12:51,269 --> 00:12:49,360
with bots and whatnot the election

356
00:12:52,790 --> 00:12:51,279
process in another country

357
00:12:54,550 --> 00:12:52,800
and they're not necessarily even you

358
00:12:56,310 --> 00:12:54,560
know official state actors but they're

359
00:12:58,629 --> 00:12:56,320
still tied to a certain

360
00:12:59,990 --> 00:12:58,639
nation state often and a certain uh

361
00:13:02,870 --> 00:13:00,000
world view

362
00:13:04,550 --> 00:13:02,880
it becomes very very complex and then uh

363
00:13:07,509 --> 00:13:04,560
you know because then who

364
00:13:10,069 --> 00:13:07,519
who's the karma police for who um

365
00:13:11,350 --> 00:13:10,079
very complex question um yeah and like

366
00:13:12,870 --> 00:13:11,360
you say i don't think there's any easy

367
00:13:13,829 --> 00:13:12,880
answers like we're definitely not here

368
00:13:16,069 --> 00:13:13,839
to say

369
00:13:17,829 --> 00:13:16,079
okay we've got you know exo and nathan

370
00:13:19,590 --> 00:13:17,839
have our five step plan

371
00:13:22,069 --> 00:13:19,600
for how we can fix this tonight because

372
00:13:23,269 --> 00:13:22,079
it's there's there are no simple answers

373
00:13:25,350 --> 00:13:23,279
and if there's one thing i would really

374
00:13:26,550 --> 00:13:25,360
want to you know impress upon people is

375
00:13:28,710 --> 00:13:26,560
that

376
00:13:30,389 --> 00:13:28,720
whenever you try and salvage one kind of

377
00:13:31,990 --> 00:13:30,399
value or ideal you often have to

378
00:13:34,470 --> 00:13:32,000
sacrifice another at least to some

379
00:13:37,110 --> 00:13:34,480
degree like there's always a trade-off

380
00:13:38,230 --> 00:13:37,120
you know so so free speech

381
00:13:40,470 --> 00:13:38,240
versus

382
00:13:42,550 --> 00:13:40,480
protecting people that is a complex

383
00:13:45,430 --> 00:13:42,560
equation and there are no simple answers

384
00:13:47,350 --> 00:13:45,440
that i i resist the notion that you know

385
00:13:48,870 --> 00:13:47,360
you there there is one i just don't

386
00:13:51,350 --> 00:13:48,880
think there is you

387
00:13:54,069 --> 00:13:51,360
you have to give and take in that and

388
00:13:56,710 --> 00:13:54,079
there are major implications

389
00:13:58,870 --> 00:13:56,720
in the negative if you skew too far on

390
00:14:00,710 --> 00:13:58,880
either side of that equation so it's

391
00:14:02,389 --> 00:14:00,720
it's this ongoing wrestling we're just

392
00:14:05,430 --> 00:14:02,399
gonna have to do as a culture and in

393
00:14:10,069 --> 00:14:07,910
yes i mean it's uh i think

394
00:14:13,110 --> 00:14:10,079
it's a mature position to take that that

395
00:14:14,310 --> 00:14:13,120
rules are helpful but not necessarily

396
00:14:16,870 --> 00:14:14,320
uh

397
00:14:18,550 --> 00:14:16,880
you know sort of always set in stone you

398
00:14:19,430 --> 00:14:18,560
know they can't be so rigid that they

399
00:14:21,910 --> 00:14:19,440
can't

400
00:14:24,150 --> 00:14:21,920
adapt or flex to you know other

401
00:14:25,030 --> 00:14:24,160
imperatives that arise

402
00:14:26,629 --> 00:14:25,040
um

403
00:14:28,550 --> 00:14:26,639
but you know coming back to you know

404
00:14:30,870 --> 00:14:28,560
something you touched on a second ago

405
00:14:32,629 --> 00:14:30,880
i mean why why is this important for us

406
00:14:34,310 --> 00:14:32,639
to tackle this topic you know so like

407
00:14:37,030 --> 00:14:34,320
why you know you and i have had a lot of

408
00:14:38,870 --> 00:14:37,040
conversations and i think those of us

409
00:14:39,910 --> 00:14:38,880
those of you who've listened to

410
00:14:42,310 --> 00:14:39,920
our show

411
00:14:45,030 --> 00:14:42,320
uh or you know any of our content

412
00:14:46,710 --> 00:14:45,040
separately probably see a lot of uh

413
00:14:47,990 --> 00:14:46,720
commonality between the two of us we're

414
00:14:49,910 --> 00:14:48,000
not exactly

415
00:14:51,110 --> 00:14:49,920
you know meeting up and kind of duking

416
00:14:53,269 --> 00:14:51,120
it out uh

417
00:14:56,310 --> 00:14:53,279
in terms of our our perspectives but

418
00:14:57,269 --> 00:14:56,320
what so why is uh that this this topic

419
00:15:02,550 --> 00:14:57,279
of

420
00:15:05,430 --> 00:15:02,560
navigating disagreement why is this

421
00:15:07,750 --> 00:15:05,440
important uh to us

422
00:15:10,150 --> 00:15:07,760
yeah good question and i'm reminded of a

423
00:15:11,910 --> 00:15:10,160
political show that was on in the past

424
00:15:13,509 --> 00:15:11,920
might have been the 90s or the 2000s

425
00:15:15,430 --> 00:15:13,519
called crossfire and that's exactly what

426
00:15:17,829 --> 00:15:15,440
it was it was like just basically

427
00:15:20,470 --> 00:15:17,839
enemies like you know

428
00:15:21,990 --> 00:15:20,480
attacking each other for like 30 minutes

429
00:15:28,069 --> 00:15:22,000
um

430
00:15:30,069 --> 00:15:28,079
you i don't think you'll ever hear a

431
00:15:33,350 --> 00:15:30,079
show where we don't mention that word

432
00:15:34,790 --> 00:15:33,360
um and i think we we both because we've

433
00:15:36,710 --> 00:15:34,800
been through

434
00:15:38,470 --> 00:15:36,720
transitions of our own world views where

435
00:15:41,189 --> 00:15:38,480
we actually see the world in reality

436
00:15:43,110 --> 00:15:41,199
differently than our former selves

437
00:15:44,790 --> 00:15:43,120
we it makes you

438
00:15:47,430 --> 00:15:44,800
more wary of

439
00:15:48,629 --> 00:15:47,440
really concretized perspectives

440
00:15:50,310 --> 00:15:48,639
um

441
00:15:52,150 --> 00:15:50,320
i think you you get to a point where you

442
00:15:54,470 --> 00:15:52,160
hold even your current view you hold

443
00:15:55,829 --> 00:15:54,480
much more lightly you know

444
00:15:57,030 --> 00:15:55,839
you take it seriously but you hold it

445
00:15:58,710 --> 00:15:57,040
lightly and your

446
00:16:00,629 --> 00:15:58,720
you sort of develop the

447
00:16:01,910 --> 00:16:00,639
inclination to look for outlier data

448
00:16:03,990 --> 00:16:01,920
that might question your current

449
00:16:05,990 --> 00:16:04,000
perspective because if it's been

450
00:16:08,949 --> 00:16:06,000
happened to you before

451
00:16:11,430 --> 00:16:08,959
chances are it'll happen again right um

452
00:16:13,509 --> 00:16:11,440
and in this particular uh field you know

453
00:16:16,710 --> 00:16:13,519
the ufo phenomenon and paranormality

454
00:16:17,590 --> 00:16:16,720
which is you know arm our mainstay

455
00:16:19,590 --> 00:16:17,600
uh

456
00:16:21,350 --> 00:16:19,600
you know conspiracy theories are

457
00:16:24,870 --> 00:16:21,360
everywhere right and

458
00:16:26,870 --> 00:16:24,880
we are in a field where um

459
00:16:28,629 --> 00:16:26,880
on the one hand you've got some pretty

460
00:16:30,949 --> 00:16:28,639
outlandish claims

461
00:16:32,389 --> 00:16:30,959
that on the face of it sound almost

462
00:16:34,389 --> 00:16:32,399
preposterous

463
00:16:36,069 --> 00:16:34,399
on the other hand

464
00:16:37,509 --> 00:16:36,079
i think if you've been in this field for

465
00:16:39,590 --> 00:16:37,519
any period of time

466
00:16:42,550 --> 00:16:39,600
you see clear evidence of

467
00:16:45,110 --> 00:16:42,560
historic government not only cover-ups

468
00:16:46,949 --> 00:16:45,120
but um oppression repression of people

469
00:16:48,389 --> 00:16:46,959
who tried to resist that cover-up even

470
00:16:50,629 --> 00:16:48,399
potentially

471
00:16:52,550 --> 00:16:50,639
you know assassination of people um

472
00:16:54,470 --> 00:16:52,560
ruining people definitely

473
00:16:56,310 --> 00:16:54,480
based on their desire to try and expose

474
00:16:57,189 --> 00:16:56,320
the truth

475
00:16:58,550 --> 00:16:57,199
uh

476
00:17:00,470 --> 00:16:58,560
so it

477
00:17:02,629 --> 00:17:00,480
and and you know this uh

478
00:17:04,789 --> 00:17:02,639
this topic is related to many other

479
00:17:06,949 --> 00:17:04,799
conspiracies too in other words just

480
00:17:08,390 --> 00:17:06,959
demographically

481
00:17:11,029 --> 00:17:08,400
this is not a value statement i'm just

482
00:17:12,549 --> 00:17:11,039
saying when you look at these statistics

483
00:17:15,669 --> 00:17:12,559
the people who are interested in the

484
00:17:19,029 --> 00:17:15,679
phenomenon skew towards conspiracy

485
00:17:21,510 --> 00:17:19,039
theories in general right whether it's 9

486
00:17:24,230 --> 00:17:21,520
11 being an inside job or the kennedy

487
00:17:25,270 --> 00:17:24,240
assassination or the secret space

488
00:17:28,230 --> 00:17:25,280
you know

489
00:17:33,270 --> 00:17:31,350
all of these are associated with ufology

490
00:17:34,150 --> 00:17:33,280
on the one hand because

491
00:17:36,070 --> 00:17:34,160
um

492
00:17:38,390 --> 00:17:36,080
again i think once you sort of like you

493
00:17:40,950 --> 00:17:38,400
mentioned that phrase fool me once shame

494
00:17:42,870 --> 00:17:40,960
on you fool me twice shame on me

495
00:17:44,230 --> 00:17:42,880
uh you that's the sort of perspective

496
00:17:46,310 --> 00:17:44,240
you take

497
00:17:48,150 --> 00:17:46,320
but at the same time you don't want to

498
00:17:50,310 --> 00:17:48,160
start seeing a demon behind every bush

499
00:17:51,270 --> 00:17:50,320
to use another you know analogy of a

500
00:17:53,110 --> 00:17:51,280
phrase

501
00:17:55,029 --> 00:17:53,120
in other words just because one

502
00:17:56,870 --> 00:17:55,039
conspiracy theory has been proven to be

503
00:17:58,390 --> 00:17:56,880
true doesn't mean you should just write

504
00:17:59,909 --> 00:17:58,400
a blank check and say that every

505
00:18:02,470 --> 00:17:59,919
conspiracy theory you ever come across

506
00:18:05,029 --> 00:18:02,480
therefore must also be true

507
00:18:07,029 --> 00:18:05,039
but admittedly to to try and have a

508
00:18:08,630 --> 00:18:07,039
critical eye to and that doesn't mean

509
00:18:10,789 --> 00:18:08,640
negative it just means

510
00:18:13,190 --> 00:18:10,799
really be willing to delve into the

511
00:18:15,350 --> 00:18:13,200
evidence you know and see what actually

512
00:18:17,430 --> 00:18:15,360
supports one position or another

513
00:18:19,029 --> 00:18:17,440
um is challenging and i think people

514
00:18:20,230 --> 00:18:19,039
sometimes experience intellectual

515
00:18:21,430 --> 00:18:20,240
fatigue

516
00:18:23,590 --> 00:18:21,440
because they just don't know what to

517
00:18:25,750 --> 00:18:23,600
believe anymore right like when you've

518
00:18:26,950 --> 00:18:25,760
even for experiencers

519
00:18:28,470 --> 00:18:26,960
you know you've been brought up to

520
00:18:29,510 --> 00:18:28,480
believe one thing about reality and then

521
00:18:31,029 --> 00:18:29,520
suddenly

522
00:18:32,390 --> 00:18:31,039
grey aliens show up at the end of your

523
00:18:33,830 --> 00:18:32,400
bed

524
00:18:35,350 --> 00:18:33,840
and even for a guy like you know jim

525
00:18:38,150 --> 00:18:35,360
semivan who worked for the cia it

526
00:18:39,830 --> 00:18:38,160
happens to a guy like that right and and

527
00:18:41,669 --> 00:18:39,840
what does that do for

528
00:18:43,830 --> 00:18:41,679
not just the question of aliens and what

529
00:18:45,510 --> 00:18:43,840
they are and what they're doing here but

530
00:18:47,110 --> 00:18:45,520
everything about reality is suddenly in

531
00:18:48,230 --> 00:18:47,120
play and and

532
00:18:50,470 --> 00:18:48,240
so i think

533
00:18:51,350 --> 00:18:50,480
those of us who really delve into this

534
00:18:53,669 --> 00:18:51,360
um

535
00:18:55,350 --> 00:18:53,679
inevitably end up asking questions

536
00:18:57,830 --> 00:18:55,360
really open questions about a lot of

537
00:19:00,070 --> 00:18:57,840
topics and that just sort of par for the

538
00:19:01,909 --> 00:19:00,080
course

539
00:19:03,510 --> 00:19:01,919
definitely well i find it interesting so

540
00:19:05,830 --> 00:19:03,520
i can understand

541
00:19:07,750 --> 00:19:05,840
why if you've had an experience a direct

542
00:19:10,390 --> 00:19:07,760
experience of something strange that you

543
00:19:12,630 --> 00:19:10,400
would really exhibit a strong degree of

544
00:19:14,390 --> 00:19:12,640
conviction about that you know i've i've

545
00:19:16,390 --> 00:19:14,400
seen something don't tell me what i've

546
00:19:18,950 --> 00:19:16,400
seen i know what i've seen

547
00:19:20,950 --> 00:19:18,960
and this is what it means you know so i

548
00:19:23,270 --> 00:19:20,960
can really understand

549
00:19:24,310 --> 00:19:23,280
a strong opinion in that situation what

550
00:19:26,870 --> 00:19:24,320
i think i have a harder time

551
00:19:29,350 --> 00:19:26,880
understanding is folks who have

552
00:19:31,990 --> 00:19:29,360
incredibly strong opinions about you

553
00:19:35,590 --> 00:19:32,000
know sort of topics or conspiracies that

554
00:19:37,510 --> 00:19:35,600
there isn't necessarily a lot of clear

555
00:19:39,990 --> 00:19:37,520
data that you could point to and say

556
00:19:40,789 --> 00:19:40,000
look you know here it is to sort of back

557
00:19:42,549 --> 00:19:40,799
up

558
00:19:43,669 --> 00:19:42,559
whatever it is they're saying but so

559
00:19:45,750 --> 00:19:43,679
many are

560
00:19:48,630 --> 00:19:45,760
just heavily invested

561
00:19:50,950 --> 00:19:48,640
uh in in particular positions uh to the

562
00:19:53,909 --> 00:19:50,960
exclusion and sometimes the almost

563
00:19:56,310 --> 00:19:53,919
violent exclusion of other viewpoints on

564
00:19:59,510 --> 00:19:56,320
the topic even viewpoints that

565
00:20:01,110 --> 00:19:59,520
might happen to have similar perspective

566
00:20:03,590 --> 00:20:01,120
just not the same

567
00:20:05,430 --> 00:20:03,600
you know so i i've always struggled with

568
00:20:06,870 --> 00:20:05,440
that and i i kind of

569
00:20:08,950 --> 00:20:06,880
for me it's like

570
00:20:11,430 --> 00:20:08,960
trying to understand

571
00:20:13,990 --> 00:20:11,440
the sort of uh motivations or the

572
00:20:17,190 --> 00:20:14,000
personality traits that that that

573
00:20:18,789 --> 00:20:17,200
contribute to that type of behavior

574
00:20:21,669 --> 00:20:18,799
um so i definitely would like to get

575
00:20:24,149 --> 00:20:21,679
your thoughts on that uh you know

576
00:20:25,750 --> 00:20:24,159
what's going on there you know like

577
00:20:27,830 --> 00:20:25,760
why

578
00:20:29,750 --> 00:20:27,840
that heavy investment and something that

579
00:20:32,230 --> 00:20:29,760
just doesn't seem to be

580
00:20:35,110 --> 00:20:32,240
you know very clear-cut yeah it's a good

581
00:20:36,710 --> 00:20:35,120
question and um there's definitely you

582
00:20:40,470 --> 00:20:36,720
know a lot of evidence for cognitive

583
00:20:42,630 --> 00:20:40,480
bias everywhere you look um

584
00:20:43,990 --> 00:20:42,640
i think part of it comes down to

585
00:20:48,870 --> 00:20:44,000
people want

586
00:20:50,390 --> 00:20:48,880
like ambiguity they don't like um

587
00:20:52,070 --> 00:20:50,400
well when the the evidence right now

588
00:20:55,190 --> 00:20:52,080
looks you know

589
00:20:57,350 --> 00:20:55,200
like 52 one way 48 another way right

590
00:20:59,350 --> 00:20:57,360
that just that that's really

591
00:21:01,270 --> 00:20:59,360
not just

592
00:21:03,750 --> 00:21:01,280
does it lack resolution

593
00:21:06,470 --> 00:21:03,760
but it creates cognitive dissonance like

594
00:21:07,669 --> 00:21:06,480
it just doesn't feel good to uh for that

595
00:21:09,430 --> 00:21:07,679
to be the case

596
00:21:11,430 --> 00:21:09,440
and when you think about the human brain

597
00:21:12,789 --> 00:21:11,440
and even how when we see optical

598
00:21:14,149 --> 00:21:12,799
illusions

599
00:21:15,669 --> 00:21:14,159
even sometimes when we know it's an

600
00:21:17,110 --> 00:21:15,679
optical illusion it's been demonstrated

601
00:21:19,590 --> 00:21:17,120
to us

602
00:21:21,350 --> 00:21:19,600
that we can't argue with it we still

603
00:21:22,630 --> 00:21:21,360
can't get our brain to see it as an

604
00:21:23,909 --> 00:21:22,640
optical illusion it still looks like

605
00:21:25,350 --> 00:21:23,919
reality to us

606
00:21:26,950 --> 00:21:25,360
it's almost like we've been hardwired

607
00:21:28,630 --> 00:21:26,960
from an evolutionary point of view we

608
00:21:31,669 --> 00:21:28,640
have been hardwired from an evolutionary

609
00:21:33,909 --> 00:21:31,679
point of view to come down in blacks and

610
00:21:36,310 --> 00:21:33,919
whites right partly because that was an

611
00:21:37,830 --> 00:21:36,320
evolutionary trait to keep us alive you

612
00:21:39,669 --> 00:21:37,840
when the lion's coming you can't sit

613
00:21:41,909 --> 00:21:39,679
there pondering the ambiguity of what it

614
00:21:43,990 --> 00:21:41,919
is right you just got to make an uh make

615
00:21:45,669 --> 00:21:44,000
a move and if you're wrong well at least

616
00:21:47,510 --> 00:21:45,679
you're alive right

617
00:21:48,789 --> 00:21:47,520
but if you think too hard about it you

618
00:21:50,390 --> 00:21:48,799
know uh

619
00:21:51,830 --> 00:21:50,400
then you're dead

620
00:21:53,750 --> 00:21:51,840
so

621
00:21:55,510 --> 00:21:53,760
that's part of our evolutionary history

622
00:21:56,950 --> 00:21:55,520
so when we have these really complex

623
00:21:58,870 --> 00:21:56,960
topics now

624
00:22:01,510 --> 00:21:58,880
i think it goes against the grain of our

625
00:22:04,549 --> 00:22:01,520
evolution to some degree to just sort of

626
00:22:06,710 --> 00:22:04,559
uh step back take the 30 000 foot view

627
00:22:08,230 --> 00:22:06,720
and and just say i'm on pause and

628
00:22:09,510 --> 00:22:08,240
gathering data until there is more

629
00:22:12,950 --> 00:22:09,520
clarity

630
00:22:17,909 --> 00:22:15,990
yeah it's it it's probably the the thing

631
00:22:19,750 --> 00:22:17,919
that frustrates me the most about this

632
00:22:21,669 --> 00:22:19,760
field and we were talking about this

633
00:22:22,710 --> 00:22:21,679
before we went on the air

634
00:22:25,510 --> 00:22:22,720
that

635
00:22:27,110 --> 00:22:25,520
even when i on my podcast state very

636
00:22:28,870 --> 00:22:27,120
clearly that i think we should resist

637
00:22:31,430 --> 00:22:28,880
the temptation to collapse multiple

638
00:22:33,830 --> 00:22:31,440
possibilities into one or two like a

639
00:22:35,350 --> 00:22:33,840
binary option right i see people doing

640
00:22:37,669 --> 00:22:35,360
it all the time sometimes in the very

641
00:22:39,750 --> 00:22:37,679
podcast i just said it i'll get comments

642
00:22:41,350 --> 00:22:39,760
that sound like they want to do that

643
00:22:44,789 --> 00:22:41,360
so

644
00:22:47,190 --> 00:22:44,799
aren't even self-aware that they're

645
00:22:48,710 --> 00:22:47,200
doing it and you can literally say it to

646
00:22:50,149 --> 00:22:48,720
them it goes in one ear and out the

647
00:22:51,430 --> 00:22:50,159
other and they just don't know how to

648
00:22:53,430 --> 00:22:51,440
practice it

649
00:22:54,870 --> 00:22:53,440
now part of it maybe is our academic

650
00:22:56,230 --> 00:22:54,880
background like i remember even in

651
00:22:58,710 --> 00:22:56,240
psychology

652
00:23:01,110 --> 00:22:58,720
you know we were taught that um you know

653
00:23:02,630 --> 00:23:01,120
when you see a study that you know or

654
00:23:04,470 --> 00:23:02,640
even mark twain right said that there's

655
00:23:06,549 --> 00:23:04,480
a there's three kinds of lies right

656
00:23:07,430 --> 00:23:06,559
there's lies damn lies and statistics

657
00:23:09,110 --> 00:23:07,440
right

658
00:23:10,870 --> 00:23:09,120
and the point there is that just because

659
00:23:12,470 --> 00:23:10,880
someone shows you statistics doesn't

660
00:23:14,549 --> 00:23:12,480
mean you should take it as the gospel

661
00:23:15,510 --> 00:23:14,559
truth right because who's funding the

662
00:23:17,830 --> 00:23:15,520
study

663
00:23:20,230 --> 00:23:17,840
what were the uh what were the what kind

664
00:23:23,029 --> 00:23:20,240
of protocols were there there to make

665
00:23:25,190 --> 00:23:23,039
sure it was uh you know a fair

666
00:23:26,549 --> 00:23:25,200
and blind study right so

667
00:23:29,029 --> 00:23:26,559
and if you know if for instance the

668
00:23:31,190 --> 00:23:29,039
tobacco industry is authoring a study

669
00:23:33,510 --> 00:23:31,200
and paying for it on the

670
00:23:35,110 --> 00:23:33,520
damaging nature of nicotine you might

671
00:23:36,870 --> 00:23:35,120
right away say

672
00:23:38,630 --> 00:23:36,880
there's a strong possibility here that

673
00:23:40,390 --> 00:23:38,640
they have a preferred

674
00:23:41,990 --> 00:23:40,400
conclusion right

675
00:23:43,269 --> 00:23:42,000
those kind of things so

676
00:23:45,590 --> 00:23:43,279
i think we should absolutely do that

677
00:23:47,590 --> 00:23:45,600
with a ufo phenomenon and paranormality

678
00:23:49,190 --> 00:23:47,600
uh we should say

679
00:23:50,789 --> 00:23:49,200
who's saying this not just what are they

680
00:23:53,190 --> 00:23:50,799
saying but who who's saying it and

681
00:23:55,350 --> 00:23:53,200
what's their background and and why they

682
00:23:57,350 --> 00:23:55,360
why might they not only consciously skew

683
00:23:59,350 --> 00:23:57,360
one way but maybe even unconsciously

684
00:24:01,110 --> 00:23:59,360
skew one way where they're not

685
00:24:03,269 --> 00:24:01,120
necessarily deliberately lying or

686
00:24:04,710 --> 00:24:03,279
deceiving themselves or deceiving you

687
00:24:06,390 --> 00:24:04,720
but they just haven't developed the

688
00:24:08,149 --> 00:24:06,400
capacity to

689
00:24:10,710 --> 00:24:08,159
to look with um

690
00:24:13,029 --> 00:24:10,720
with really discerning critical vision

691
00:24:15,909 --> 00:24:13,039
at data and be aware of their own

692
00:24:20,630 --> 00:24:15,919
tendency to to prefer one

693
00:24:24,230 --> 00:24:22,310
i think too like arriving at a place

694
00:24:26,070 --> 00:24:24,240
where you could go through those motions

695
00:24:28,149 --> 00:24:26,080
and

696
00:24:29,590 --> 00:24:28,159
sort of put yourselves in the shoes of

697
00:24:32,149 --> 00:24:29,600
that person

698
00:24:34,070 --> 00:24:32,159
and say you know based on what i know

699
00:24:36,789 --> 00:24:34,080
about them

700
00:24:38,950 --> 00:24:36,799
i understand how they arrived at that

701
00:24:41,830 --> 00:24:38,960
conclusion i understand why they hold

702
00:24:43,590 --> 00:24:41,840
that perspective i disagree with that

703
00:24:45,510 --> 00:24:43,600
but i understand it you know i

704
00:24:46,789 --> 00:24:45,520
understand that i know that sometimes

705
00:24:48,549 --> 00:24:46,799
that that can sound a little bit

706
00:24:50,390 --> 00:24:48,559
condescending like well if you only

707
00:24:51,990 --> 00:24:50,400
understood it like i did then you'd have

708
00:24:53,269 --> 00:24:52,000
a different perspective that's not

709
00:24:54,950 --> 00:24:53,279
really what i'm getting at i think it's

710
00:24:57,590 --> 00:24:54,960
just more so saying

711
00:24:58,710 --> 00:24:57,600
it's this recognition that we all live

712
00:25:02,149 --> 00:24:58,720
in a

713
00:25:03,830 --> 00:25:02,159
kind of a a i say a flux in in our

714
00:25:04,789 --> 00:25:03,840
various sort of

715
00:25:07,750 --> 00:25:04,799
uh

716
00:25:09,750 --> 00:25:07,760
narrative realities you know

717
00:25:11,029 --> 00:25:09,760
we like to sort of paint this picture

718
00:25:12,950 --> 00:25:11,039
that there might be this kind of

719
00:25:14,950 --> 00:25:12,960
objective truth that's just sort of

720
00:25:16,789 --> 00:25:14,960
sitting there like a box in a room we

721
00:25:18,870 --> 00:25:16,799
can all look at it and it's you know

722
00:25:21,510 --> 00:25:18,880
there's the box that's the truth but i

723
00:25:23,669 --> 00:25:21,520
think it's closer to true

724
00:25:25,750 --> 00:25:23,679
that that it depends on where you are in

725
00:25:27,430 --> 00:25:25,760
the room what it is that you're seeing

726
00:25:29,750 --> 00:25:27,440
um and

727
00:25:32,950 --> 00:25:29,760
you know just acknowledging that fact

728
00:25:34,789 --> 00:25:32,960
that you you know that person may be

729
00:25:36,789 --> 00:25:34,799
at another side of the room and may have

730
00:25:39,669 --> 00:25:36,799
a different perspective on it and it may

731
00:25:42,789 --> 00:25:39,679
also be okay it may be in some ways

732
00:25:45,110 --> 00:25:42,799
correct uh from their vantage point

733
00:25:46,310 --> 00:25:45,120
uh and what is the value and you utility

734
00:25:47,990 --> 00:25:46,320
of that it's funny that you brought up

735
00:25:50,950 --> 00:25:48,000
illusions because

736
00:25:52,789 --> 00:25:50,960
uh i was actually i meant to put that in

737
00:25:54,870 --> 00:25:52,799
the show notes yes folks we do have show

738
00:25:56,710 --> 00:25:54,880
notes uh that we don't necessarily

739
00:25:58,149 --> 00:25:56,720
follow but i meant to put that in the

740
00:26:00,149 --> 00:25:58,159
notes and so i'm glad that you brought

741
00:26:03,350 --> 00:26:00,159
it up so thank you but we were the

742
00:26:05,750 --> 00:26:03,360
family uh and i we took a trip recently

743
00:26:06,870 --> 00:26:05,760
and there was uh this uh

744
00:26:08,870 --> 00:26:06,880
sort of

745
00:26:09,590 --> 00:26:08,880
they called it the museum of illusions

746
00:26:12,070 --> 00:26:09,600
and

747
00:26:13,909 --> 00:26:12,080
immediately going inside that place have

748
00:26:15,510 --> 00:26:13,919
all these different types of illusions

749
00:26:18,390 --> 00:26:15,520
that you can see

750
00:26:19,750 --> 00:26:18,400
and it very quickly confirmed for me

751
00:26:22,310 --> 00:26:19,760
that there's very little that we we can

752
00:26:25,110 --> 00:26:22,320
trust in our own sort of perceptual

753
00:26:26,630 --> 00:26:25,120
experience you know that we are just so

754
00:26:29,190 --> 00:26:26,640
easily duped

755
00:26:30,549 --> 00:26:29,200
by what it is that is you know coming at

756
00:26:33,110 --> 00:26:30,559
us

757
00:26:35,029 --> 00:26:33,120
and so that ties into course a ton of

758
00:26:36,950 --> 00:26:35,039
things that i think we've talked about

759
00:26:39,510 --> 00:26:36,960
and will continue to talk about

760
00:26:41,750 --> 00:26:39,520
in terms of what is true and how we you

761
00:26:43,990 --> 00:26:41,760
know verify what is true

762
00:26:45,669 --> 00:26:44,000
um but i thought that was a in a little

763
00:26:47,830 --> 00:26:45,679
bit of a synchronicity that you brought

764
00:26:49,909 --> 00:26:47,840
that up um

765
00:26:52,710 --> 00:26:49,919
because it is it is complicated it is

766
00:26:55,990 --> 00:26:52,720
multifaceted in some ways

767
00:26:57,590 --> 00:26:56,000
to me it's it's kind of uh

768
00:26:59,830 --> 00:26:57,600
you know it's strange that we live in a

769
00:27:02,549 --> 00:26:59,840
time that

770
00:27:05,669 --> 00:27:02,559
allows us to have this understanding

771
00:27:08,470 --> 00:27:05,679
that this level of complex understanding

772
00:27:10,230 --> 00:27:08,480
that that we can be easily duped uh that

773
00:27:11,830 --> 00:27:10,240
we have access to all this different

774
00:27:13,669 --> 00:27:11,840
different information you know you did

775
00:27:15,350 --> 00:27:13,679
just mentioning like who funded the

776
00:27:17,350 --> 00:27:15,360
study and like these are questions that

777
00:27:19,990 --> 00:27:17,360
not every generation which preceded us

778
00:27:22,710 --> 00:27:20,000
actually asked or even was aware of so

779
00:27:25,750 --> 00:27:22,720
we have we live at a time where i think

780
00:27:27,909 --> 00:27:25,760
our awareness of this is uh is kind of

781
00:27:29,990 --> 00:27:27,919
better than it's ever been and you would

782
00:27:32,070 --> 00:27:30,000
think

783
00:27:33,990 --> 00:27:32,080
that that would cause us to be more

784
00:27:35,510 --> 00:27:34,000
understanding of one another but it

785
00:27:38,950 --> 00:27:35,520
actually doesn't seem to be the case at

786
00:27:40,789 --> 00:27:38,960
all you know it seems to contribute to a

787
00:27:42,630 --> 00:27:40,799
lot of tribalism and

788
00:27:44,630 --> 00:27:42,640
you know kind of this retreating to our

789
00:27:45,909 --> 00:27:44,640
corners and saying well you know i know

790
00:27:47,510 --> 00:27:45,919
you're on that side of the box but i'm

791
00:27:49,029 --> 00:27:47,520
over here i really like it over here

792
00:27:50,630 --> 00:27:49,039
over here is the best place to be and

793
00:27:52,789 --> 00:27:50,640
from where i'm standing

794
00:27:54,870 --> 00:27:52,799
that's not a box it's a triangle you

795
00:27:56,149 --> 00:27:54,880
know and and i don't want to i don't

796
00:27:57,830 --> 00:27:56,159
want to hear from anybody that tells me

797
00:27:59,669 --> 00:27:57,840
otherwise

798
00:28:02,789 --> 00:27:59,679
yeah absolutely it's uh

799
00:28:05,110 --> 00:28:02,799
it is complex and um

800
00:28:07,190 --> 00:28:05,120
like you say it's one thing to to know

801
00:28:08,870 --> 00:28:07,200
something even statistically

802
00:28:11,110 --> 00:28:08,880
but to actually

803
00:28:13,669 --> 00:28:11,120
manage to change your behavior based on

804
00:28:15,110 --> 00:28:13,679
that knowledge is another thing entirely

805
00:28:17,269 --> 00:28:15,120
it is interesting that for the first

806
00:28:18,950 --> 00:28:17,279
time in history like you say we we know

807
00:28:21,510 --> 00:28:18,960
many things about our

808
00:28:23,990 --> 00:28:21,520
our evolutionary background and how that

809
00:28:26,230 --> 00:28:24,000
skews our ability to

810
00:28:28,230 --> 00:28:26,240
perceive reality correctly and you know

811
00:28:31,269 --> 00:28:28,240
we've talked before about donald

812
00:28:34,950 --> 00:28:31,279
hoffman's work where he's demonstrated

813
00:28:37,029 --> 00:28:34,960
pre you know pretty uh convincingly

814
00:28:38,310 --> 00:28:37,039
that even through mathematical proofs

815
00:28:40,070 --> 00:28:38,320
and whatnot

816
00:28:42,310 --> 00:28:40,080
that

817
00:28:44,549 --> 00:28:42,320
almost certainly what we perceive is

818
00:28:46,310 --> 00:28:44,559
more like a desktop interface rather

819
00:28:48,310 --> 00:28:46,320
than the actual

820
00:28:50,789 --> 00:28:48,320
perception of what reality really is or

821
00:28:53,590 --> 00:28:50,799
what's really out there and again that

822
00:28:56,389 --> 00:28:53,600
was a an evolutionary um

823
00:28:59,350 --> 00:28:56,399
move made to keep us alive to show us

824
00:29:01,750 --> 00:28:59,360
just enough a close approximation

825
00:29:03,350 --> 00:29:01,760
of only the most important elements of

826
00:29:05,269 --> 00:29:03,360
what's out there so that we would

827
00:29:07,029 --> 00:29:05,279
survive to you know propagate the

828
00:29:09,110 --> 00:29:07,039
species and such

829
00:29:11,590 --> 00:29:09,120
so we have all sorts of evidence like

830
00:29:14,149 --> 00:29:11,600
we've never had before to tell ourselves

831
00:29:15,590 --> 00:29:14,159
that what we see how we perceive

832
00:29:17,110 --> 00:29:15,600
uh is

833
00:29:19,430 --> 00:29:17,120
we already knew like in terms of the

834
00:29:21,350 --> 00:29:19,440
bandwidth right and and how much we

835
00:29:23,029 --> 00:29:21,360
visually perceive and things like that

836
00:29:25,269 --> 00:29:23,039
it's so narrow compared to what actually

837
00:29:27,029 --> 00:29:25,279
exists right and and when you get into

838
00:29:29,110 --> 00:29:27,039
the into the infrared you see all sorts

839
00:29:30,549 --> 00:29:29,120
of things that we don't usually perceive

840
00:29:33,029 --> 00:29:30,559
but we're talking about much more than

841
00:29:34,630 --> 00:29:33,039
that we're saying that even those

842
00:29:36,630 --> 00:29:34,640
you know these great devices we come up

843
00:29:38,630 --> 00:29:36,640
with more and more powerful telescopes

844
00:29:40,070 --> 00:29:38,640
more and more powerful microscopes the

845
00:29:42,389 --> 00:29:40,080
more we look at the quantum level and

846
00:29:44,470 --> 00:29:42,399
things break apart to the idea that they

847
00:29:47,350 --> 00:29:44,480
become more like probabilities waves

848
00:29:49,430 --> 00:29:47,360
rather than physical things right

849
00:29:50,310 --> 00:29:49,440
we have less and less confidence even

850
00:29:52,230 --> 00:29:50,320
the

851
00:29:53,350 --> 00:29:52,240
reality is real in many ways you know

852
00:29:54,950 --> 00:29:53,360
like

853
00:29:57,750 --> 00:29:54,960
in other words the question

854
00:29:59,909 --> 00:29:57,760
goes uh to the deepest levels and

855
00:30:01,190 --> 00:29:59,919
you know uh unless you're monty python

856
00:30:02,950 --> 00:30:01,200
saying you know it's turtles all the way

857
00:30:04,870 --> 00:30:02,960
down man that's the answer

858
00:30:06,310 --> 00:30:04,880
uh you know there there is no simple

859
00:30:08,789 --> 00:30:06,320
answer and so

860
00:30:10,789 --> 00:30:08,799
in the midst of this really compelling

861
00:30:12,630 --> 00:30:10,799
question about the ufo phenomenon these

862
00:30:15,350 --> 00:30:12,640
others who apparently are in our midst

863
00:30:17,430 --> 00:30:15,360
and are interacting with us and their

864
00:30:19,190 --> 00:30:17,440
presence seems to be ramping up

865
00:30:22,470 --> 00:30:19,200
in the midst of all that and those

866
00:30:24,230 --> 00:30:22,480
questions we have

867
00:30:26,389 --> 00:30:24,240
coincidingly

868
00:30:28,710 --> 00:30:26,399
vast questions about what nate what

869
00:30:30,389 --> 00:30:28,720
reality is who we are

870
00:30:32,230 --> 00:30:30,399
you know the the biggest questions of

871
00:30:33,909 --> 00:30:32,240
all and so um

872
00:30:36,470 --> 00:30:33,919
and when people you know are trying to

873
00:30:37,909 --> 00:30:36,480
live their lives and you know make their

874
00:30:40,389 --> 00:30:37,919
way through the world in the few decades

875
00:30:42,789 --> 00:30:40,399
that we're here

876
00:30:44,310 --> 00:30:42,799
not that many people have the luxury to

877
00:30:45,350 --> 00:30:44,320
step back and consider these really

878
00:30:47,590 --> 00:30:45,360
really big

879
00:30:49,350 --> 00:30:47,600
questions and so they tend to go down

880
00:30:50,950 --> 00:30:49,360
one track and that kind of the second

881
00:30:52,310 --> 00:30:50,960
you take that track that limits the

882
00:30:55,190 --> 00:30:52,320
possibilities

883
00:30:56,870 --> 00:30:55,200
and that sort of feeds the um you know

884
00:30:58,470 --> 00:30:56,880
the conflict with other groups who've

885
00:31:00,549 --> 00:30:58,480
taken a different track

886
00:31:02,470 --> 00:31:00,559
and i like what you said about

887
00:31:03,990 --> 00:31:02,480
you know it's not about being right or

888
00:31:05,269 --> 00:31:04,000
wrong sometimes it's about just

889
00:31:07,430 --> 00:31:05,279
literally seeing something from

890
00:31:10,310 --> 00:31:07,440
different perspectives and i've used

891
00:31:12,310 --> 00:31:10,320
this word before multi-perspectival like

892
00:31:14,470 --> 00:31:12,320
part of my inner integral background has

893
00:31:16,789 --> 00:31:14,480
taught me that it's not about which

894
00:31:18,789 --> 00:31:16,799
group has the right view it's what is

895
00:31:21,430 --> 00:31:18,799
right about each group

896
00:31:23,269 --> 00:31:21,440
and how can we synthesize a much more

897
00:31:25,110 --> 00:31:23,279
robust understanding that takes the best

898
00:31:26,070 --> 00:31:25,120
of all of those models

899
00:31:27,750 --> 00:31:26,080
and and

900
00:31:29,029 --> 00:31:27,760
truth models right spiritual truth

901
00:31:32,870 --> 00:31:29,039
models and what we've learned from

902
00:31:34,389 --> 00:31:32,880
science and uh all of that because the

903
00:31:35,830 --> 00:31:34,399
frustrating thing with history is that

904
00:31:37,990 --> 00:31:35,840
we usually

905
00:31:40,310 --> 00:31:38,000
when we come into a new understanding

906
00:31:42,070 --> 00:31:40,320
partly in kind of like a shadow move

907
00:31:44,310 --> 00:31:42,080
rejecting almost out of embarrassment

908
00:31:47,269 --> 00:31:44,320
who we used to be who our ancestors used

909
00:31:49,029 --> 00:31:47,279
to be we reject that entire

910
00:31:51,029 --> 00:31:49,039
series of revelations that they lived

911
00:31:53,269 --> 00:31:51,039
under and adopt the new one

912
00:31:55,029 --> 00:31:53,279
wholeheartedly and at first don't apply

913
00:31:55,909 --> 00:31:55,039
any of critical thinking to the new

914
00:31:57,350 --> 00:31:55,919
thing

915
00:31:59,269 --> 00:31:57,360
almost like a kind of penance it's

916
00:32:00,789 --> 00:31:59,279
really strange psychological move we

917
00:32:02,149 --> 00:32:00,799
make both as individuals and as a

918
00:32:03,909 --> 00:32:02,159
collective

919
00:32:05,750 --> 00:32:03,919
but what i've learned is much more

920
00:32:08,470 --> 00:32:05,760
helpful is to recognize

921
00:32:10,230 --> 00:32:08,480
if large groups of people found truth in

922
00:32:12,630 --> 00:32:10,240
a certain perspective for long periods

923
00:32:15,269 --> 00:32:12,640
of time there's probably something there

924
00:32:17,269 --> 00:32:15,279
and as as ken wilbur likes to say

925
00:32:18,950 --> 00:32:17,279
everybody's right in other words

926
00:32:20,549 --> 00:32:18,960
everybody's right to some degree if it

927
00:32:22,710 --> 00:32:20,559
helds sway for a period of time whether

928
00:32:24,549 --> 00:32:22,720
it's shamanic culture or you know the

929
00:32:26,549 --> 00:32:24,559
reformation or you know the

930
00:32:28,310 --> 00:32:26,559
enlightenment or whatever

931
00:32:30,470 --> 00:32:28,320
there there's probably something to it

932
00:32:32,470 --> 00:32:30,480
how can we synthesize build up a larger

933
00:32:34,149 --> 00:32:32,480
truth that takes the best of all that

934
00:32:36,470 --> 00:32:34,159
and i would love to see that happen more

935
00:32:39,590 --> 00:32:36,480
often around the ufo phenomenon and

936
00:32:44,789 --> 00:32:42,789
well yeah it i don't think it i do not

937
00:32:46,710 --> 00:32:44,799
think it's coincidental that we that

938
00:32:49,029 --> 00:32:46,720
these points are really converging right

939
00:32:50,230 --> 00:32:49,039
now you know that that as you mentioned

940
00:32:52,630 --> 00:32:50,240
we've got this

941
00:32:55,190 --> 00:32:52,640
uh you know more levels of free time

942
00:32:57,909 --> 00:32:55,200
more awareness of the ways in which we

943
00:32:59,909 --> 00:32:57,919
are integrated the way that our

944
00:33:02,230 --> 00:32:59,919
perceptions influence what we understand

945
00:33:04,070 --> 00:33:02,240
to be true or not true it's not a

946
00:33:06,870 --> 00:33:04,080
coincidence that that time in our

947
00:33:09,190 --> 00:33:06,880
history is also coinciding with this

948
00:33:10,630 --> 00:33:09,200
the bigger questions of like what is

949
00:33:12,470 --> 00:33:10,640
happening with

950
00:33:15,110 --> 00:33:12,480
all of these experiences that have been

951
00:33:16,149 --> 00:33:15,120
reported and modern and in ancient

952
00:33:18,630 --> 00:33:16,159
history

953
00:33:20,470 --> 00:33:18,640
uh we're we're reflecting on this and as

954
00:33:21,509 --> 00:33:20,480
we reflect on that

955
00:33:24,870 --> 00:33:21,519
it actually

956
00:33:26,630 --> 00:33:24,880
makes room and space for that to become

957
00:33:28,310 --> 00:33:26,640
in a sense

958
00:33:29,909 --> 00:33:28,320
more real uh

959
00:33:31,750 --> 00:33:29,919
than it had been like in a way it's

960
00:33:32,950 --> 00:33:31,760
almost manifesting it

961
00:33:35,029 --> 00:33:32,960
um

962
00:33:37,750 --> 00:33:35,039
and so you know to kind of as we're

963
00:33:40,070 --> 00:33:37,760
pivoting to looking at the ufo and uh

964
00:33:41,029 --> 00:33:40,080
you know high strangers specifically

965
00:33:43,830 --> 00:33:41,039
um

966
00:33:45,590 --> 00:33:43,840
with respect to disagreements and and

967
00:33:47,430 --> 00:33:45,600
political disagreements

968
00:33:48,549 --> 00:33:47,440
you know i do find it particularly

969
00:33:49,669 --> 00:33:48,559
interesting

970
00:33:51,110 --> 00:33:49,679
that

971
00:33:53,190 --> 00:33:51,120
we

972
00:33:55,590 --> 00:33:53,200
are in a time where

973
00:33:57,590 --> 00:33:55,600
when when in in the us at least when

974
00:33:59,669 --> 00:33:57,600
when the right and the left

975
00:34:03,350 --> 00:33:59,679
are really looking for any excuse they

976
00:34:05,509 --> 00:34:03,360
can find to demean devalue attack

977
00:34:06,870 --> 00:34:05,519
and belittle the other to gain political

978
00:34:08,869 --> 00:34:06,880
points

979
00:34:10,790 --> 00:34:08,879
the one topic that they seem to be

980
00:34:13,109 --> 00:34:10,800
pretty consistently

981
00:34:14,149 --> 00:34:13,119
on the same page

982
00:34:15,510 --> 00:34:14,159
is

983
00:34:19,430 --> 00:34:15,520
uap

984
00:34:20,950 --> 00:34:19,440
stuff is

985
00:34:23,430 --> 00:34:20,960
and i've you know i've heard the cynical

986
00:34:25,270 --> 00:34:23,440
argument on that is you know

987
00:34:28,310 --> 00:34:25,280
well they realize that we're behind the

988
00:34:29,430 --> 00:34:28,320
curve somehow that that uh drones you

989
00:34:31,109 --> 00:34:29,440
know are

990
00:34:33,270 --> 00:34:31,119
everywhere and

991
00:34:35,990 --> 00:34:33,280
we've got to do something about it and

992
00:34:38,389 --> 00:34:36,000
so to sort of save face we're

993
00:34:40,310 --> 00:34:38,399
entertaining this notion of

994
00:34:42,710 --> 00:34:40,320
you know it could be

995
00:34:43,909 --> 00:34:42,720
some advanced you know alien species or

996
00:34:46,310 --> 00:34:43,919
something

997
00:34:47,109 --> 00:34:46,320
and that allows us to kind of sidestep

998
00:34:49,430 --> 00:34:47,119
our

999
00:34:51,829 --> 00:34:49,440
negligence and culpability and

1000
00:34:55,270 --> 00:34:51,839
allowing the drone threat to become more

1001
00:34:56,629 --> 00:34:55,280
prevalent but honestly i i find that

1002
00:34:57,750 --> 00:34:56,639
hard to believe

1003
00:34:59,510 --> 00:34:57,760
as well

1004
00:35:02,710 --> 00:34:59,520
because i i

1005
00:35:05,910 --> 00:35:02,720
as recently as a couple weeks ago i saw

1006
00:35:07,589 --> 00:35:05,920
a republican lawmaker absolutely

1007
00:35:08,550 --> 00:35:07,599
just grill

1008
00:35:11,510 --> 00:35:08,560
uh

1009
00:35:14,069 --> 00:35:11,520
the secretary of defense lloyd austin

1010
00:35:16,630 --> 00:35:14,079
on c-span over how we handled the

1011
00:35:18,870 --> 00:35:16,640
afghanistan withdrawal so you can't tell

1012
00:35:20,630 --> 00:35:18,880
me that we don't have some folks in in

1013
00:35:22,390 --> 00:35:20,640
some parties

1014
00:35:23,829 --> 00:35:22,400
and that was just one example i'm sure

1015
00:35:25,829 --> 00:35:23,839
that there are plenty in the le on the

1016
00:35:27,349 --> 00:35:25,839
left side that you know we're grilling

1017
00:35:29,190 --> 00:35:27,359
uh you know

1018
00:35:31,349 --> 00:35:29,200
the trump administration for certain

1019
00:35:33,750 --> 00:35:31,359
things that they did

1020
00:35:36,550 --> 00:35:33,760
we're not afraid to go after

1021
00:35:39,670 --> 00:35:36,560
uh incompetence if it's perceived

1022
00:35:41,829 --> 00:35:39,680
uh in our in our military operations

1023
00:35:44,230 --> 00:35:41,839
because a lot of our military appointees

1024
00:35:45,990 --> 00:35:44,240
are civilian you know they're they're

1025
00:35:48,470 --> 00:35:46,000
they're not necessarily

1026
00:35:51,430 --> 00:35:48,480
military members themselves so

1027
00:35:53,829 --> 00:35:51,440
all that said having a lot of agreement

1028
00:35:57,270 --> 00:35:53,839
and and co-sponsorship of bills and

1029
00:35:58,790 --> 00:35:57,280
efforts understand what uap actually are

1030
00:36:00,470 --> 00:35:58,800
and then improve and enhance our

1031
00:36:02,870 --> 00:36:00,480
collection there

1032
00:36:04,950 --> 00:36:02,880
you know to me that says a lot about the

1033
00:36:06,630 --> 00:36:04,960
the sort of validity of the subject

1034
00:36:08,550 --> 00:36:06,640
itself

1035
00:36:10,790 --> 00:36:08,560
and it's refreshing quite frankly um

1036
00:36:13,510 --> 00:36:10,800
this is one area of our

1037
00:36:14,950 --> 00:36:13,520
you know sort of society where we could

1038
00:36:18,310 --> 00:36:14,960
actually

1039
00:36:20,470 --> 00:36:18,320
agree we could we could model how to

1040
00:36:24,230 --> 00:36:20,480
come together and and effectuate some

1041
00:36:26,630 --> 00:36:24,240
positive change for our for our people

1042
00:36:29,030 --> 00:36:26,640
and hopefully kind of kick start a new

1043
00:36:30,630 --> 00:36:29,040
way of interacting with each other uh in

1044
00:36:32,710 --> 00:36:30,640
a more healthy way

1045
00:36:34,870 --> 00:36:32,720
yeah absolutely when you're talking

1046
00:36:36,630 --> 00:36:34,880
about that there i was reminded of that

1047
00:36:38,310 --> 00:36:36,640
that famous speech that ronald reagan

1048
00:36:39,910 --> 00:36:38,320
gave where he said

1049
00:36:41,990 --> 00:36:39,920
if there's one thing that could end the

1050
00:36:43,910 --> 00:36:42,000
cold war and unite the human

1051
00:36:45,750 --> 00:36:43,920
civilization it would be an

1052
00:36:47,510 --> 00:36:45,760
extraterrestrial threat

1053
00:36:48,630 --> 00:36:47,520
uh which again when you think about it

1054
00:36:50,550 --> 00:36:48,640
it's all about

1055
00:36:53,109 --> 00:36:50,560
changing perspective right

1056
00:36:55,190 --> 00:36:53,119
um and i remember this um

1057
00:36:56,870 --> 00:36:55,200
this situation where there was a high

1058
00:36:58,390 --> 00:36:56,880
school teacher

1059
00:36:59,829 --> 00:36:58,400
who was noticing a lot and i think they

1060
00:37:01,109 --> 00:36:59,839
were teaching sociology or something

1061
00:37:03,109 --> 00:37:01,119
like that

1062
00:37:05,270 --> 00:37:03,119
and they were noticing a lot of like

1063
00:37:07,270 --> 00:37:05,280
cliquiness kind of in in their classroom

1064
00:37:09,270 --> 00:37:07,280
you know like one group the jocks

1065
00:37:10,630 --> 00:37:09,280
against the rockers against the nerds or

1066
00:37:13,670 --> 00:37:10,640
whatever

1067
00:37:15,430 --> 00:37:13,680
and um so he he wanted to demonstrate

1068
00:37:17,589 --> 00:37:15,440
rather than a great teacher so rather

1069
00:37:20,069 --> 00:37:17,599
than um you know trying to teach them

1070
00:37:22,470 --> 00:37:20,079
about sociology he he actually used them

1071
00:37:25,589 --> 00:37:22,480
as guinea pigs to show them how it works

1072
00:37:26,870 --> 00:37:25,599
so basically he just became increasingly

1073
00:37:28,470 --> 00:37:26,880
capricious

1074
00:37:30,310 --> 00:37:28,480
towards them in terms of what he

1075
00:37:32,230 --> 00:37:30,320
expected from them and he was you know

1076
00:37:33,670 --> 00:37:32,240
unpredictable in terms of when he gave

1077
00:37:35,910 --> 00:37:33,680
quizzes

1078
00:37:37,270 --> 00:37:35,920
uh when he gave homework you know just

1079
00:37:39,109 --> 00:37:37,280
and so he just

1080
00:37:40,790 --> 00:37:39,119
united the class

1081
00:37:43,109 --> 00:37:40,800
against him right so these different

1082
00:37:45,910 --> 00:37:43,119
cliques within the classroom

1083
00:37:47,510 --> 00:37:45,920
became unified against the the you know

1084
00:37:49,589 --> 00:37:47,520
the evil teacher who was being so

1085
00:37:51,510 --> 00:37:49,599
capricious and unfair

1086
00:37:53,510 --> 00:37:51,520
and at the end of the class at the end

1087
00:37:54,870 --> 00:37:53,520
of the year he he explained to them what

1088
00:37:56,390 --> 00:37:54,880
he was doing and what he was trying to

1089
00:37:58,870 --> 00:37:56,400
teach them

1090
00:38:01,430 --> 00:37:58,880
and that again we reflect back on on

1091
00:38:02,550 --> 00:38:01,440
ronald reagan's speech that absolutely

1092
00:38:04,550 --> 00:38:02,560
uh

1093
00:38:07,270 --> 00:38:04,560
sometimes what it takes to to end an

1094
00:38:09,510 --> 00:38:07,280
argument is for a more overarching

1095
00:38:11,190 --> 00:38:09,520
uh issue to come online right to come

1096
00:38:12,470 --> 00:38:11,200
into our awareness

1097
00:38:14,069 --> 00:38:12,480
and uh

1098
00:38:16,230 --> 00:38:14,079
you you could even argue you could play

1099
00:38:17,910 --> 00:38:16,240
with the notion anyway that

1100
00:38:20,710 --> 00:38:17,920
some of these intelligences that we're

1101
00:38:23,109 --> 00:38:20,720
dealing with are aware of our conflict

1102
00:38:25,349 --> 00:38:23,119
our tribalism

1103
00:38:27,190 --> 00:38:25,359
and how dangerous it is you know like i

1104
00:38:29,109 --> 00:38:27,200
don't think our country has ever been so

1105
00:38:30,470 --> 00:38:29,119
close to civil war since the civil war

1106
00:38:31,270 --> 00:38:30,480
is now

1107
00:38:34,150 --> 00:38:31,280
um

1108
00:38:35,510 --> 00:38:34,160
that maybe that them showing up and

1109
00:38:37,829 --> 00:38:35,520
maybe the ramping up that's even

1110
00:38:40,710 --> 00:38:37,839
happening which i i would argue

1111
00:38:42,390 --> 00:38:40,720
from a data-driven point of view is is

1112
00:38:43,829 --> 00:38:42,400
seems to be taking place right now there

1113
00:38:45,510 --> 00:38:43,839
seems to be

1114
00:38:47,190 --> 00:38:45,520
from what i what i'm hearing from

1115
00:38:48,150 --> 00:38:47,200
numerous sources there's a ramping up

1116
00:38:49,990 --> 00:38:48,160
going on

1117
00:38:53,349 --> 00:38:50,000
and you you could at least play with the

1118
00:38:55,589 --> 00:38:53,359
notion that our current um economic

1119
00:38:57,109 --> 00:38:55,599
political sociological

1120
00:38:58,630 --> 00:38:57,119
divisions

1121
00:39:00,230 --> 00:38:58,640
when you tie that with i mean we've

1122
00:39:01,589 --> 00:39:00,240
always been divided but when you tie it

1123
00:39:05,750 --> 00:39:01,599
to

1124
00:39:08,870 --> 00:39:05,760
know when you think you talked about the

1125
00:39:10,790 --> 00:39:08,880
pandemic whether it's a an architected

1126
00:39:12,950 --> 00:39:10,800
virus that gets released or nuclear

1127
00:39:14,550 --> 00:39:12,960
bombs or whatever you know so many ways

1128
00:39:16,069 --> 00:39:14,560
we could really really destroy our

1129
00:39:17,109 --> 00:39:16,079
civilization

1130
00:39:20,069 --> 00:39:17,119
that

1131
00:39:21,670 --> 00:39:20,079
maybe this is one way just by showing up

1132
00:39:23,910 --> 00:39:21,680
just by making their presence known

1133
00:39:24,870 --> 00:39:23,920
which forces us to ask the question who

1134
00:39:27,030 --> 00:39:24,880
are they

1135
00:39:28,790 --> 00:39:27,040
what does this mean in terms of who we

1136
00:39:32,150 --> 00:39:28,800
are how does this impact the big

1137
00:39:33,910 --> 00:39:32,160
questions it changes the equation maybe

1138
00:39:35,990 --> 00:39:33,920
gets us to change the nature of our

1139
00:39:38,310 --> 00:39:36,000
arguments and we focus on something more

1140
00:39:39,589 --> 00:39:38,320
overarching like you say that we can all

1141
00:39:41,589 --> 00:39:39,599
agree with because it's one of the very

1142
00:39:43,829 --> 00:39:41,599
few topics like you say

1143
00:39:48,150 --> 00:39:43,839
where there's um you know

1144
00:39:52,630 --> 00:39:49,910
well how important is it

1145
00:39:59,109 --> 00:39:55,510
until we have better information

1146
00:40:00,390 --> 00:39:59,119
clear information we can talk about

1147
00:40:03,670 --> 00:40:00,400
you know kind of

1148
00:40:05,829 --> 00:40:03,680
the avenues of information distribution

1149
00:40:07,270 --> 00:40:05,839
or

1150
00:40:10,550 --> 00:40:07,280
validity

1151
00:40:12,150 --> 00:40:10,560
how important is it in today's day where

1152
00:40:13,910 --> 00:40:12,160
we don't yet have

1153
00:40:16,069 --> 00:40:13,920
better data

1154
00:40:18,470 --> 00:40:16,079
to all agree

1155
00:40:21,670 --> 00:40:18,480
you know to me it seems like

1156
00:40:24,790 --> 00:40:21,680
uh it's it's healthy and maybe should be

1157
00:40:27,430 --> 00:40:24,800
even encouraged that we

1158
00:40:28,870 --> 00:40:27,440
you know entertain foster different

1159
00:40:32,150 --> 00:40:28,880
perspectives

1160
00:40:34,230 --> 00:40:32,160
uh within the community of interest

1161
00:40:35,190 --> 00:40:34,240
so you know for me

1162
00:40:39,430 --> 00:40:35,200
it

1163
00:40:41,430 --> 00:40:39,440
take these different uh you know have

1164
00:40:44,150 --> 00:40:41,440
these different opinions

1165
00:40:46,390 --> 00:40:44,160
what i find to be unhealthy is the way

1166
00:40:47,670 --> 00:40:46,400
in which those opinions are either

1167
00:40:51,030 --> 00:40:47,680
expressed

1168
00:40:52,470 --> 00:40:51,040
or wielded like weapons against those

1169
00:40:53,589 --> 00:40:52,480
that have an

1170
00:40:54,550 --> 00:40:53,599
alternate

1171
00:40:58,069 --> 00:40:54,560
take

1172
00:40:59,589 --> 00:40:58,079
you know so to me if we're going to

1173
00:41:01,990 --> 00:40:59,599
and i guess you know this is a topic we

1174
00:41:04,150 --> 00:41:02,000
can hit on as well like how important is

1175
00:41:07,109 --> 00:41:04,160
it that we have a community that

1176
00:41:08,950 --> 00:41:07,119
reflects a diversity of opinion

1177
00:41:11,190 --> 00:41:08,960
you know so is that a value that we

1178
00:41:13,670 --> 00:41:11,200
really should strive for or

1179
00:41:15,670 --> 00:41:13,680
is it better that we just uh to use the

1180
00:41:18,550 --> 00:41:15,680
word that you used a few minutes ago

1181
00:41:21,030 --> 00:41:18,560
kind of congregate in our little clicks

1182
00:41:23,750 --> 00:41:21,040
of like-minded you know thinkers and

1183
00:41:25,190 --> 00:41:23,760
just kind of put up the walls and defend

1184
00:41:27,349 --> 00:41:25,200
those walls

1185
00:41:29,030 --> 00:41:27,359
against the those who don't have have

1186
00:41:30,390 --> 00:41:29,040
our perspective

1187
00:41:31,990 --> 00:41:30,400
you know maybe that that's what we

1188
00:41:34,790 --> 00:41:32,000
should do maybe i'm wrong about this

1189
00:41:36,950 --> 00:41:34,800
maybe you know having a diverse

1190
00:41:38,309 --> 00:41:36,960
set of perspectives and allowing people

1191
00:41:41,349 --> 00:41:38,319
to come to the table with those

1192
00:41:43,190 --> 00:41:41,359
perspectives in a respectful

1193
00:41:45,030 --> 00:41:43,200
healthy way maybe that's not great you

1194
00:41:46,470 --> 00:41:45,040
know maybe it's better that you know

1195
00:41:49,589 --> 00:41:46,480
people just retreat to their their

1196
00:41:51,510 --> 00:41:49,599
corners of uh ufo twitter and you know

1197
00:41:53,910 --> 00:41:51,520
kind of stay out of each other's lanes i

1198
00:41:55,270 --> 00:41:53,920
mean that to me that that's not

1199
00:41:57,190 --> 00:41:55,280
that doesn't

1200
00:41:59,109 --> 00:41:57,200
you know ring true doesn't feel like

1201
00:42:00,950 --> 00:41:59,119
that that's the right way to go about it

1202
00:42:03,270 --> 00:42:00,960
it feels like we are

1203
00:42:04,470 --> 00:42:03,280
uh we are made better

1204
00:42:12,550 --> 00:42:04,480
by

1205
00:42:14,309 --> 00:42:12,560
on a regular basis

1206
00:42:17,270 --> 00:42:14,319
i often wonder the

1207
00:42:19,750 --> 00:42:17,280
those that are the most vocal

1208
00:42:21,589 --> 00:42:19,760
regardless of their perspective who are

1209
00:42:23,589 --> 00:42:21,599
you know basically kind of shouting back

1210
00:42:25,510 --> 00:42:23,599
at each other you know what what's

1211
00:42:28,150 --> 00:42:25,520
really going on there you know what what

1212
00:42:30,630 --> 00:42:28,160
what is really at stake in the situation

1213
00:42:33,910 --> 00:42:30,640
because uh you know to me it sort of is

1214
00:42:34,870 --> 00:42:33,920
a mask for some sort of underlying

1215
00:42:37,510 --> 00:42:34,880
issue

1216
00:42:39,349 --> 00:42:37,520
that that isn't expressed you know it's

1217
00:42:42,390 --> 00:42:39,359
it's kind of a defense mechanism in a

1218
00:42:44,470 --> 00:42:42,400
way uh maybe they've just invested

1219
00:42:46,470 --> 00:42:44,480
you know so much time and energy in a

1220
00:42:48,309 --> 00:42:46,480
particular perspective that to admit

1221
00:42:51,349 --> 00:42:48,319
that they might be wrong

1222
00:42:53,750 --> 00:42:51,359
is kind of an admission of defeat or uh

1223
00:42:56,230 --> 00:42:53,760
like a psychological break

1224
00:42:58,309 --> 00:42:56,240
uh because they're just not willing to

1225
00:43:00,230 --> 00:42:58,319
you know to entertain that so i don't

1226
00:43:02,150 --> 00:43:00,240
know i guess what i'm searching for here

1227
00:43:03,829 --> 00:43:02,160
here is and i ask this a lot on on the

1228
00:43:05,510 --> 00:43:03,839
shows that i'm on is you know what are

1229
00:43:06,630 --> 00:43:05,520
some models what are some things we can

1230
00:43:09,270 --> 00:43:06,640
look to

1231
00:43:10,790 --> 00:43:09,280
to help us uh you know have this

1232
00:43:13,510 --> 00:43:10,800
discussion

1233
00:43:15,750 --> 00:43:13,520
in a way that that is respectful of

1234
00:43:17,990 --> 00:43:15,760
differing opinion and even encouraging a

1235
00:43:20,150 --> 00:43:18,000
different opinion without it becoming

1236
00:43:21,670 --> 00:43:20,160
inflamed i don't know what what are your

1237
00:43:23,349 --> 00:43:21,680
thoughts on that

1238
00:43:25,510 --> 00:43:23,359
yeah there are numerous ways that i

1239
00:43:26,870 --> 00:43:25,520
would address that

1240
00:43:28,390 --> 00:43:26,880
one is when you think about the notion

1241
00:43:30,870 --> 00:43:28,400
of a debate

1242
00:43:31,750 --> 00:43:30,880
that in itself suggests that you know

1243
00:43:33,829 --> 00:43:31,760
two

1244
00:43:35,430 --> 00:43:33,839
uh opposite parties will

1245
00:43:38,470 --> 00:43:35,440
argue back and forth

1246
00:43:40,230 --> 00:43:38,480
and one of two options will come out on

1247
00:43:41,270 --> 00:43:40,240
top right like it assumes right away

1248
00:43:43,829 --> 00:43:41,280
that there's a

1249
00:43:46,069 --> 00:43:43,839
yes or no black or white binary kind of

1250
00:43:46,870 --> 00:43:46,079
truth that we can get to with a debate

1251
00:43:49,430 --> 00:43:46,880
so

1252
00:43:51,589 --> 00:43:49,440
even the notion of a debate has

1253
00:43:55,030 --> 00:43:51,599
underlying assumptions about the nature

1254
00:43:57,190 --> 00:43:55,040
of truth or reality right um

1255
00:44:01,190 --> 00:43:57,200
versus a dialogue or a conversation

1256
00:44:04,870 --> 00:44:02,790
you you brought up an interesting point

1257
00:44:07,430 --> 00:44:04,880
that's worth uh paying attention to and

1258
00:44:10,309 --> 00:44:07,440
that's use the term psychological break

1259
00:44:12,470 --> 00:44:10,319
i think we do have to be um

1260
00:44:15,030 --> 00:44:12,480
sympathetic to people because

1261
00:44:16,550 --> 00:44:15,040
for some people they've already been

1262
00:44:17,990 --> 00:44:16,560
through that like sometimes with an

1263
00:44:19,510 --> 00:44:18,000
experience of the phenomenon or

1264
00:44:20,870 --> 00:44:19,520
paranormality

1265
00:44:23,109 --> 00:44:20,880
um they

1266
00:44:25,190 --> 00:44:23,119
you know it it literally not only

1267
00:44:26,069 --> 00:44:25,200
changed their perspective on reality but

1268
00:44:28,390 --> 00:44:26,079
um

1269
00:44:29,349 --> 00:44:28,400
even your sense of personal agency right

1270
00:44:31,030 --> 00:44:29,359
can be

1271
00:44:31,829 --> 00:44:31,040
so violated

1272
00:44:33,990 --> 00:44:31,839
um

1273
00:44:36,790 --> 00:44:34,000
not only to think things seem to

1274
00:44:38,870 --> 00:44:36,800
supposedly have control over you but you

1275
00:44:41,270 --> 00:44:38,880
can't even get the mainstream to believe

1276
00:44:43,109 --> 00:44:41,280
it's even happening

1277
00:44:44,950 --> 00:44:43,119
what you know how could you describe a

1278
00:44:47,430 --> 00:44:44,960
more hopeless feeling right where you

1279
00:44:49,190 --> 00:44:47,440
have no agency whatsoever

1280
00:44:50,790 --> 00:44:49,200
and maybe the one

1281
00:44:52,550 --> 00:44:50,800
thing you feel like you have left to do

1282
00:44:55,109 --> 00:44:52,560
is convince everybody else that this is

1283
00:44:56,870 --> 00:44:55,119
malevolent and nefarious and

1284
00:44:58,069 --> 00:44:56,880
we got to wake up right and so you can

1285
00:44:59,670 --> 00:44:58,079
understand that people are coming from

1286
00:45:01,190 --> 00:44:59,680
that perspective

1287
00:45:02,309 --> 00:45:01,200
they have a lot of skin in the game

1288
00:45:04,069 --> 00:45:02,319
right

1289
00:45:05,349 --> 00:45:04,079
and i think we have to be not only

1290
00:45:08,230 --> 00:45:05,359
sympathetic to that but we have to

1291
00:45:10,630 --> 00:45:08,240
listen closely you know like even if you

1292
00:45:11,990 --> 00:45:10,640
tend either to them being mostly good or

1293
00:45:13,430 --> 00:45:12,000
mostly bad

1294
00:45:15,430 --> 00:45:13,440
listen to the side who's making the

1295
00:45:16,870 --> 00:45:15,440
counter argument like listen closely

1296
00:45:18,069 --> 00:45:16,880
don't listen and go

1297
00:45:20,470 --> 00:45:18,079
i'm waiting for the thing that i can

1298
00:45:22,230 --> 00:45:20,480
pick apart to prove that i'm right

1299
00:45:23,510 --> 00:45:22,240
really approach it

1300
00:45:25,109 --> 00:45:23,520
with the

1301
00:45:27,190 --> 00:45:25,119
mentality that you want to learn

1302
00:45:29,750 --> 00:45:27,200
something right and really ask yourself

1303
00:45:30,790 --> 00:45:29,760
am i here is my demeanor is my intention

1304
00:45:34,630 --> 00:45:30,800
here

1305
00:45:35,910 --> 00:45:34,640
right

1306
00:45:37,589 --> 00:45:35,920
um

1307
00:45:38,950 --> 00:45:37,599
so again we've talked about this before

1308
00:45:42,309 --> 00:45:38,960
in the show a lot of this comes down to

1309
00:45:44,230 --> 00:45:42,319
self-awareness right being aware of

1310
00:45:48,230 --> 00:45:44,240
how you enter into an equation a

1311
00:45:49,910 --> 00:45:48,240
conversation a discussion a forum um

1312
00:45:51,109 --> 00:45:49,920
what what is it you're you're hoping to

1313
00:45:52,230 --> 00:45:51,119
gain from it

1314
00:45:54,069 --> 00:45:52,240
um

1315
00:45:55,470 --> 00:45:54,079
some people would argue that while you

1316
00:45:57,270 --> 00:45:55,480
and i kind of embrace this

1317
00:45:58,550 --> 00:45:57,280
multi-perspectival view and say there's

1318
00:45:59,829 --> 00:45:58,560
something we can all learn from each

1319
00:46:03,030 --> 00:45:59,839
other and there's probably shreds of

1320
00:46:04,630 --> 00:46:03,040
truth in multi multiple perspectives

1321
00:46:06,230 --> 00:46:04,640
some people would say that in itself is

1322
00:46:08,069 --> 00:46:06,240
kind of propaganda from a certain

1323
00:46:10,790 --> 00:46:08,079
position and it's true right like we

1324
00:46:13,190 --> 00:46:10,800
would acknowledge that that

1325
00:46:15,510 --> 00:46:13,200
we all have to begin with some baselines

1326
00:46:18,150 --> 00:46:15,520
about reality and how we should navigate

1327
00:46:19,829 --> 00:46:18,160
the world and ours happens to be that we

1328
00:46:21,270 --> 00:46:19,839
have a more cosmopolitan kind of view

1329
00:46:24,069 --> 00:46:21,280
where we believe that it

1330
00:46:25,829 --> 00:46:24,079
it's helpful and we get further ahead by

1331
00:46:27,349 --> 00:46:25,839
being exposed to different views but not

1332
00:46:29,349 --> 00:46:27,359
everyone agrees with that some people

1333
00:46:31,190 --> 00:46:29,359
think that um you know for instance like

1334
00:46:33,109 --> 00:46:31,200
we've said many times before

1335
00:46:34,870 --> 00:46:33,119
those who are convinced that any of

1336
00:46:36,870 --> 00:46:34,880
these entities that seem to be

1337
00:46:38,870 --> 00:46:36,880
interdimensional or

1338
00:46:40,150 --> 00:46:38,880
not conventionally either human or

1339
00:46:42,550 --> 00:46:40,160
animal

1340
00:46:44,230 --> 00:46:42,560
just by definition must be bad news and

1341
00:46:47,829 --> 00:46:44,240
to even talk about it to even have the

1342
00:46:50,309 --> 00:46:47,839
conversation is to give it more power um

1343
00:46:52,550 --> 00:46:50,319
the same way that you talked about

1344
00:46:54,230 --> 00:46:52,560
you know us merely being exposed to this

1345
00:46:57,109 --> 00:46:54,240
and talking about it may create a kind

1346
00:46:58,870 --> 00:46:57,119
of feedback loop that concretizes it and

1347
00:46:59,990 --> 00:46:58,880
helps it manifest all the more in our

1348
00:47:01,349 --> 00:47:00,000
reality

1349
00:47:04,069 --> 00:47:01,359
there are some people who are convinced

1350
00:47:06,230 --> 00:47:04,079
of that to the negative that

1351
00:47:07,670 --> 00:47:06,240
even having these conversations like is

1352
00:47:09,270 --> 00:47:07,680
opening doors

1353
00:47:11,589 --> 00:47:09,280
for nefarious things to come in and

1354
00:47:14,230 --> 00:47:11,599
impact us more and more and more and so

1355
00:47:17,030 --> 00:47:14,240
the best thing you know the the

1356
00:47:19,109 --> 00:47:17,040
the kindest and most apt

1357
00:47:20,790 --> 00:47:19,119
uh response is to just shut down the

1358
00:47:22,390 --> 00:47:20,800
conversation which is the opposite of

1359
00:47:23,190 --> 00:47:22,400
what we're saying right

1360
00:47:25,589 --> 00:47:23,200
so

1361
00:47:27,030 --> 00:47:25,599
we in being multi-perspective have to

1362
00:47:28,870 --> 00:47:27,040
acknowledge that that that is a

1363
00:47:31,589 --> 00:47:28,880
perspective that we at least need to

1364
00:47:32,950 --> 00:47:31,599
consider and evaluate

1365
00:47:38,710 --> 00:47:32,960
um

1366
00:47:40,390 --> 00:47:38,720
not everyone will agree with us

1367
00:47:43,109 --> 00:47:40,400
we're saying this is what we we hope

1368
00:47:43,910 --> 00:47:43,119
people will lean towards uh even for me

1369
00:47:45,430 --> 00:47:43,920
i'll

1370
00:47:47,270 --> 00:47:45,440
expose myself a bit here and say that

1371
00:47:49,589 --> 00:47:47,280
like even politically i consider myself

1372
00:47:52,470 --> 00:47:49,599
post-progressive so i'm looking for some

1373
00:47:55,109 --> 00:47:52,480
sort of transcendent synthesis of

1374
00:47:57,670 --> 00:47:55,119
viewpoints that transcend our current

1375
00:47:59,670 --> 00:47:57,680
polarization that we have in our culture

1376
00:48:00,950 --> 00:47:59,680
and i think that's very much possible

1377
00:48:03,990 --> 00:48:00,960
and again that's partly my integral

1378
00:48:07,750 --> 00:48:06,069
but again because people have skin in

1379
00:48:09,670 --> 00:48:07,760
the game because some people especially

1380
00:48:11,829 --> 00:48:09,680
in this field you know

1381
00:48:14,390 --> 00:48:11,839
uh recently saw someone who you probably

1382
00:48:16,630 --> 00:48:14,400
saw it too won't name them but

1383
00:48:19,349 --> 00:48:16,640
someone who had you know scarring on the

1384
00:48:21,270 --> 00:48:19,359
back of their their head because of

1385
00:48:23,270 --> 00:48:21,280
what it apparently was an uh interaction

1386
00:48:24,950 --> 00:48:23,280
with the uap you know and

1387
00:48:27,349 --> 00:48:24,960
and when you see that how it like

1388
00:48:29,750 --> 00:48:27,359
changes someone's life you know like in

1389
00:48:30,630 --> 00:48:29,760
a way that's um irreversible in many

1390
00:48:32,549 --> 00:48:30,640
ways

1391
00:48:34,230 --> 00:48:32,559
you can understand that for someone like

1392
00:48:36,470 --> 00:48:34,240
that

1393
00:48:38,150 --> 00:48:36,480
it's it doesn't sit well when someone

1394
00:48:40,549 --> 00:48:38,160
comes in without any experience with the

1395
00:48:41,589 --> 00:48:40,559
phenomenon and has these really strong

1396
00:48:43,750 --> 00:48:41,599
views

1397
00:48:44,790 --> 00:48:43,760
uh so there are many things to consider

1398
00:48:46,549 --> 00:48:44,800
here

1399
00:48:48,950 --> 00:48:46,559
we have to be empathetic

1400
00:48:50,150 --> 00:48:48,960
i hope we'll be open-minded and i hope

1401
00:48:51,910 --> 00:48:50,160
we actually

1402
00:48:54,630 --> 00:48:51,920
actually spend time

1403
00:48:56,549 --> 00:48:54,640
like intentionally hearing opposite

1404
00:48:58,790 --> 00:48:56,559
perspectives and giving them the time of

1405
00:49:02,790 --> 00:48:58,800
day like really evaluating it with an

1406
00:49:08,710 --> 00:49:06,870
and history often is like the

1407
00:49:11,670 --> 00:49:08,720
determiner of

1408
00:49:14,950 --> 00:49:11,680
you know what was maybe appropriate at

1409
00:49:17,109 --> 00:49:14,960
the time right so it's it is interesting

1410
00:49:19,030 --> 00:49:17,119
you know to think about this from that

1411
00:49:20,870 --> 00:49:19,040
vantage point because

1412
00:49:22,470 --> 00:49:20,880
you could argue that

1413
00:49:23,750 --> 00:49:22,480
you know kind of holding things in

1414
00:49:25,829 --> 00:49:23,760
suspension

1415
00:49:28,069 --> 00:49:25,839
like we you know are pretty good at

1416
00:49:30,390 --> 00:49:28,079
doing uh

1417
00:49:32,309 --> 00:49:30,400
may very well be you know from a

1418
00:49:34,309 --> 00:49:32,319
historical perspective like the wrong

1419
00:49:35,510 --> 00:49:34,319
position to take you know historically

1420
00:49:37,510 --> 00:49:35,520
it could be

1421
00:49:38,710 --> 00:49:37,520
better that we you know you know we

1422
00:49:40,549 --> 00:49:38,720
really fight

1423
00:49:42,829 --> 00:49:40,559
literally fight hard for

1424
00:49:45,030 --> 00:49:42,839
a particular uh

1425
00:49:47,510 --> 00:49:45,040
perspective um

1426
00:49:49,430 --> 00:49:47,520
and then by you know kind of

1427
00:49:51,430 --> 00:49:49,440
playing the fence or whatever

1428
00:49:54,390 --> 00:49:51,440
that's just not really the you know the

1429
00:49:55,190 --> 00:49:54,400
better outcome um and i do struggle with

1430
00:49:56,950 --> 00:49:55,200
that

1431
00:49:59,750 --> 00:49:56,960
you know i i guess i also sort of think

1432
00:50:01,750 --> 00:49:59,760
of it from us from the standpoint of

1433
00:50:04,470 --> 00:50:01,760
at least this has helped me particularly

1434
00:50:05,750 --> 00:50:04,480
in relationships that uh with you know

1435
00:50:07,510 --> 00:50:05,760
with friends who

1436
00:50:09,670 --> 00:50:07,520
maybe i have you know kind of strong

1437
00:50:12,069 --> 00:50:09,680
ideological disagreements with

1438
00:50:14,630 --> 00:50:12,079
it's helped me to look at this from that

1439
00:50:16,549 --> 00:50:14,640
evolutionary perspective that

1440
00:50:17,510 --> 00:50:16,559
like an evolutionary psychology in a way

1441
00:50:22,630 --> 00:50:17,520
that

1442
00:50:24,150 --> 00:50:22,640
predisposed

1443
00:50:26,390 --> 00:50:24,160
in certain ways

1444
00:50:29,030 --> 00:50:26,400
some are predisposed to be more kind of

1445
00:50:31,510 --> 00:50:29,040
binary or uh you know kind of have a

1446
00:50:34,710 --> 00:50:31,520
strong sense of justice or a need for

1447
00:50:37,589 --> 00:50:34,720
judgment some are predisposed to be a

1448
00:50:39,190 --> 00:50:37,599
lot more ambiguous and open to

1449
00:50:40,790 --> 00:50:39,200
you know sort of

1450
00:50:45,030 --> 00:50:40,800
new experiences

1451
00:50:46,950 --> 00:50:45,040
maybe a lot higher you know that that's

1452
00:50:48,630 --> 00:50:46,960
kind of some it's it's part of who we

1453
00:50:51,349 --> 00:50:48,640
are it's not necessarily something that

1454
00:50:52,790 --> 00:50:51,359
we can cognitively change once we're

1455
00:50:54,950 --> 00:50:52,800
aware of it we

1456
00:50:56,630 --> 00:50:54,960
you know can kind of modulate that some

1457
00:50:58,790 --> 00:50:56,640
but if if we're not aware of it which

1458
00:51:01,109 --> 00:50:58,800
most of us aren't most of the time uh

1459
00:51:03,109 --> 00:51:01,119
you know those factors just sort of you

1460
00:51:04,150 --> 00:51:03,119
know influence the way we move through

1461
00:51:06,390 --> 00:51:04,160
the world

1462
00:51:08,790 --> 00:51:06,400
uh and and there are times in our

1463
00:51:11,030 --> 00:51:08,800
evolutionary history and our present in

1464
00:51:13,349 --> 00:51:11,040
which those traits

1465
00:51:16,230 --> 00:51:13,359
contribute to our survival not just as

1466
00:51:17,109 --> 00:51:16,240
an individual in a certain situation but

1467
00:51:19,270 --> 00:51:17,119
you know

1468
00:51:20,230 --> 00:51:19,280
potentially as a species

1469
00:51:23,349 --> 00:51:20,240
and so

1470
00:51:25,750 --> 00:51:23,359
that perspective for me at least

1471
00:51:27,990 --> 00:51:25,760
it allows me to

1472
00:51:29,990 --> 00:51:28,000
tolerate uh

1473
00:51:32,710 --> 00:51:30,000
those that i find to be a little bit too

1474
00:51:34,790 --> 00:51:32,720
intolerant if that makes sense

1475
00:51:36,549 --> 00:51:34,800
because i kind of say you know that's

1476
00:51:37,349 --> 00:51:36,559
not who i am

1477
00:51:39,190 --> 00:51:37,359
uh

1478
00:51:40,150 --> 00:51:39,200
i i can't really get that worked up

1479
00:51:41,589 --> 00:51:40,160
about

1480
00:51:43,829 --> 00:51:41,599
xyz

1481
00:51:45,910 --> 00:51:43,839
but you know i kind of understand why

1482
00:51:48,069 --> 00:51:45,920
they are and maybe that that's okay

1483
00:51:51,589 --> 00:51:48,079
maybe that is even correct you know but

1484
00:51:54,069 --> 00:51:51,599
maybe other times those folks you know

1485
00:51:57,349 --> 00:51:54,079
need to take a back seat to

1486
00:51:59,750 --> 00:51:57,359
a more open to new experience view a

1487
00:52:01,510 --> 00:51:59,760
more willingness to change view

1488
00:52:04,470 --> 00:52:01,520
that i that you know i might bring to

1489
00:52:06,150 --> 00:52:04,480
the table um and so you know it's just

1490
00:52:08,790 --> 00:52:06,160
it's interesting to me and kind of how

1491
00:52:11,190 --> 00:52:08,800
all of this kind of it plays together

1492
00:52:13,349 --> 00:52:11,200
on a topic that is a little bit of a

1493
00:52:16,069 --> 00:52:13,359
lightning rod and i guess i wanted to

1494
00:52:18,950 --> 00:52:16,079
ask you too what's your intuition do you

1495
00:52:20,790 --> 00:52:18,960
think that the others

1496
00:52:22,870 --> 00:52:20,800
and obviously we could be

1497
00:52:23,750 --> 00:52:22,880
a whole bunch of different uh you know

1498
00:52:24,630 --> 00:52:23,760
sort of

1499
00:52:26,309 --> 00:52:24,640
uh

1500
00:52:27,910 --> 00:52:26,319
others that are out there

1501
00:52:30,390 --> 00:52:27,920
but what does your intuition say do you

1502
00:52:33,510 --> 00:52:30,400
think that some or all of them have gone

1503
00:52:36,309 --> 00:52:33,520
through this kind of same process

1504
00:52:38,870 --> 00:52:36,319
in their own you know journey as a

1505
00:52:41,430 --> 00:52:38,880
as a species or as an entity or whatever

1506
00:52:44,549 --> 00:52:41,440
and and if you think that that's true

1507
00:52:46,150 --> 00:52:44,559
you know is there a trajectory to that

1508
00:52:47,510 --> 00:52:46,160
you have a sense that there might be a

1509
00:52:50,470 --> 00:52:47,520
path there

1510
00:52:51,510 --> 00:52:50,480
yeah good question and i i think this um

1511
00:52:53,750 --> 00:52:51,520
what you're

1512
00:52:56,230 --> 00:52:53,760
asking there points to i think one of

1513
00:52:57,829 --> 00:52:56,240
the the constants that i lean towards

1514
00:52:59,109 --> 00:52:57,839
right when we talked about

1515
00:53:01,030 --> 00:52:59,119
i mean you can't wake up in the morning

1516
00:53:03,030 --> 00:53:01,040
and put your socks on without some

1517
00:53:04,470 --> 00:53:03,040
underlying beliefs about reality right

1518
00:53:07,030 --> 00:53:04,480
and even

1519
00:53:08,950 --> 00:53:07,040
science has certain untestable

1520
00:53:10,230 --> 00:53:08,960
assumptions of which upon of which it's

1521
00:53:12,309 --> 00:53:10,240
built right

1522
00:53:14,470 --> 00:53:12,319
that's just the nature of any any

1523
00:53:15,430 --> 00:53:14,480
hypothesis you put forward has to say

1524
00:53:19,349 --> 00:53:15,440
you know

1525
00:53:20,950 --> 00:53:19,359
these baselines and from that i'll i'll

1526
00:53:22,470 --> 00:53:20,960
try and construct a model of reality

1527
00:53:23,910 --> 00:53:22,480
right that's what physics is it tries to

1528
00:53:26,390 --> 00:53:23,920
model reality

1529
00:53:28,470 --> 00:53:26,400
um but you get down to the the root

1530
00:53:30,549 --> 00:53:28,480
level and it has to begin with

1531
00:53:32,230 --> 00:53:30,559
assuming this is the case let's see if

1532
00:53:34,870 --> 00:53:32,240
we could build something right

1533
00:53:36,230 --> 00:53:34,880
um and so again touching on donald

1534
00:53:37,750 --> 00:53:36,240
hoffman again

1535
00:53:39,109 --> 00:53:37,760
he says

1536
00:53:40,790 --> 00:53:39,119
i'm going to approach it differently

1537
00:53:42,549 --> 00:53:40,800
give me consciousness assume

1538
00:53:43,829 --> 00:53:42,559
consciousness is primary

1539
00:53:46,870 --> 00:53:43,839
then let me see if i can build

1540
00:53:49,829 --> 00:53:46,880
everything else matter energy space time

1541
00:53:50,950 --> 00:53:49,839
and he believes he can right and um so

1542
00:53:53,190 --> 00:53:50,960
he's trying to look at it from that

1543
00:53:55,670 --> 00:53:53,200
perspective but he's not making any more

1544
00:53:57,670 --> 00:53:55,680
leaps than someone who begins by saying

1545
00:54:00,790 --> 00:53:57,680
you know matter and

1546
00:54:02,710 --> 00:54:00,800
the material world is primary right

1547
00:54:05,750 --> 00:54:02,720
um but to get to what you're asking

1548
00:54:07,670 --> 00:54:05,760
there yes my my tendency is to uh and

1549
00:54:10,309 --> 00:54:07,680
this does shape how i see the phenomenon

1550
00:54:11,750 --> 00:54:10,319
and i had this perspective before i ever

1551
00:54:13,270 --> 00:54:11,760
became interested in this topic and

1552
00:54:15,190 --> 00:54:13,280
again it goes back to my integral

1553
00:54:17,270 --> 00:54:15,200
background and the notion of spiral

1554
00:54:19,589 --> 00:54:17,280
dynamics and i've talked about this on

1555
00:54:21,829 --> 00:54:19,599
point of convergence a few times

1556
00:54:24,150 --> 00:54:21,839
this notion that

1557
00:54:26,230 --> 00:54:24,160
there does seem to be a directionality

1558
00:54:27,829 --> 00:54:26,240
to evolution and not just i'm not just

1559
00:54:29,589 --> 00:54:27,839
talking about what our bodies evolve to

1560
00:54:31,829 --> 00:54:29,599
look like and do but i mean even our

1561
00:54:33,670 --> 00:54:31,839
consciousness seems to evolve

1562
00:54:35,750 --> 00:54:33,680
to

1563
00:54:37,910 --> 00:54:35,760
be interested interested in ever

1564
00:54:39,589 --> 00:54:37,920
expanding circles of inclusion and

1565
00:54:41,430 --> 00:54:39,599
concern so

1566
00:54:43,910 --> 00:54:41,440
again we've discussed before that you go

1567
00:54:44,950 --> 00:54:43,920
from me centric and this happens both

1568
00:54:46,789 --> 00:54:44,960
for

1569
00:54:47,670 --> 00:54:46,799
us as individuals as we grow up and move

1570
00:54:49,510 --> 00:54:47,680
through different levels of

1571
00:54:51,270 --> 00:54:49,520
understanding but also as

1572
00:54:52,789 --> 00:54:51,280
collective cultures we go through this

1573
00:54:56,230 --> 00:54:52,799
as well

1574
00:55:00,069 --> 00:54:56,240
going from me to my family to my tribe

1575
00:55:02,789 --> 00:55:00,079
to my nation state to my species

1576
00:55:05,829 --> 00:55:02,799
to all sentient life on the planet to

1577
00:55:07,589 --> 00:55:05,839
all sentient life in the cosmos and even

1578
00:55:09,990 --> 00:55:07,599
maybe this notion that

1579
00:55:11,430 --> 00:55:10,000
everything is actually ultimately a

1580
00:55:13,190 --> 00:55:11,440
manifestation of

1581
00:55:14,630 --> 00:55:13,200
one underlying substrate of

1582
00:55:17,510 --> 00:55:14,640
consciousness therefore everything's

1583
00:55:19,990 --> 00:55:17,520
connected so my self-interest now is

1584
00:55:21,750 --> 00:55:20,000
directed towards everything that what

1585
00:55:23,910 --> 00:55:21,760
happens to nathan

1586
00:55:26,230 --> 00:55:23,920
at that level should impact me as much

1587
00:55:30,390 --> 00:55:26,240
as what happens to me so that literally

1588
00:55:37,270 --> 00:55:34,309
and my perspective is again you can see

1589
00:55:39,109 --> 00:55:37,280
even with human uh civilization

1590
00:55:41,430 --> 00:55:39,119
that cultures go through these

1591
00:55:44,069 --> 00:55:41,440
predictable stages like you can you can

1592
00:55:45,109 --> 00:55:44,079
see it mapped out time and time again

1593
00:55:46,309 --> 00:55:45,119
um

1594
00:55:48,230 --> 00:55:46,319
and

1595
00:55:49,589 --> 00:55:48,240
so one of my underlying assumptions

1596
00:55:51,829 --> 00:55:49,599
because again we all bring some of them

1597
00:55:52,950 --> 00:55:51,839
to the table is that this is this is

1598
00:55:55,430 --> 00:55:52,960
more like a

1599
00:55:57,750 --> 00:55:55,440
a universal constant that

1600
00:56:00,309 --> 00:55:57,760
underlyingly i do believe consciousness

1601
00:56:02,789 --> 00:56:00,319
is is primary everything else sort of

1602
00:56:05,430 --> 00:56:02,799
comes from that

1603
00:56:07,589 --> 00:56:05,440
and because of that

1604
00:56:08,710 --> 00:56:07,599
yes these others regardless of whether

1605
00:56:11,670 --> 00:56:08,720
they're interdimensional or

1606
00:56:13,990 --> 00:56:11,680
extraterrestrial or time travelers or

1607
00:56:15,750 --> 00:56:14,000
shadow biome beings or whatever they are

1608
00:56:17,589 --> 00:56:15,760
also part of that consciousness because

1609
00:56:19,190 --> 00:56:17,599
literally everything is part of that

1610
00:56:22,150 --> 00:56:19,200
consciousness

1611
00:56:24,069 --> 00:56:22,160
so i do believe that

1612
00:56:25,430 --> 00:56:24,079
that kind of trajectory holds true

1613
00:56:28,470 --> 00:56:25,440
across the board

1614
00:56:30,390 --> 00:56:28,480
that said i also acknowledge that there

1615
00:56:32,390 --> 00:56:30,400
are different kinds of intelligence

1616
00:56:34,789 --> 00:56:32,400
different kinds of sophistication and

1617
00:56:36,870 --> 00:56:34,799
just like you can get a new age guru who

1618
00:56:38,549 --> 00:56:36,880
might really really really understand

1619
00:56:40,630 --> 00:56:38,559
meditation and be able to get to subtle

1620
00:56:42,230 --> 00:56:40,640
reality to an amazing degree and even

1621
00:56:43,670 --> 00:56:42,240
teach it to others

1622
00:56:45,990 --> 00:56:43,680
who might be

1623
00:56:47,510 --> 00:56:46,000
just a jerk you know just not have

1624
00:56:50,630 --> 00:56:47,520
social skills might be a complete

1625
00:56:52,150 --> 00:56:50,640
narcissist some people think how can one

1626
00:56:53,270 --> 00:56:52,160
you know how can both of those exist in

1627
00:56:54,309 --> 00:56:53,280
one person

1628
00:56:57,190 --> 00:56:54,319
because it's a different kind of

1629
00:56:59,670 --> 00:56:57,200
intelligence and you can uh excel in one

1630
00:57:02,789 --> 00:56:59,680
and and sometimes almost like as a

1631
00:57:04,549 --> 00:57:02,799
consequence really be stunted in another

1632
00:57:07,349 --> 00:57:04,559
um so again this is where self-awareness

1633
00:57:09,990 --> 00:57:07,359
and shadow work helps uh to sort of

1634
00:57:11,270 --> 00:57:10,000
round out not only

1635
00:57:13,349 --> 00:57:11,280
increasing your strengths but also

1636
00:57:15,829 --> 00:57:13,359
working on your weaknesses

1637
00:57:17,430 --> 00:57:15,839
so yes my my notion and i'm glad you

1638
00:57:19,510 --> 00:57:17,440
brought this up because um we talked

1639
00:57:21,430 --> 00:57:19,520
about this before we went on the air

1640
00:57:23,589 --> 00:57:21,440
and that is that for me even when people

1641
00:57:25,430 --> 00:57:23,599
draw these hard distinctions between

1642
00:57:26,710 --> 00:57:25,440
are these physical beings or are they

1643
00:57:29,109 --> 00:57:26,720
spiritual

1644
00:57:30,789 --> 00:57:29,119
so for me i've always

1645
00:57:33,030 --> 00:57:30,799
tended towards this notion this this

1646
00:57:34,870 --> 00:57:33,040
even goes back to science fiction i've

1647
00:57:36,630 --> 00:57:34,880
writ i've written in the past and read

1648
00:57:38,630 --> 00:57:36,640
in the past as well

1649
00:57:40,390 --> 00:57:38,640
where my notion is as that circle of

1650
00:57:41,910 --> 00:57:40,400
inclusion you know increasingly gets

1651
00:57:43,589 --> 00:57:41,920
larger and larger

1652
00:57:45,510 --> 00:57:43,599
and not only that but your ability to

1653
00:57:47,670 --> 00:57:45,520
manipulate reality gets larger and

1654
00:57:48,549 --> 00:57:47,680
larger because you become more not only

1655
00:57:50,950 --> 00:57:48,559
can you

1656
00:57:52,309 --> 00:57:50,960
manipulate physical reality like we can

1657
00:57:53,670 --> 00:57:52,319
really well now

1658
00:57:56,230 --> 00:57:53,680
but on top of that when you get to a

1659
00:57:58,150 --> 00:57:56,240
level where you now perceive reality on

1660
00:58:00,069 --> 00:57:58,160
a consciousness level

1661
00:58:02,230 --> 00:58:00,079
so that you can manipulate it

1662
00:58:03,829 --> 00:58:02,240
energetically without ever having to get

1663
00:58:05,750 --> 00:58:03,839
to the point where you just now work

1664
00:58:07,990 --> 00:58:05,760
with dead matter

1665
00:58:09,430 --> 00:58:08,000
then at that point you might evolve into

1666
00:58:11,510 --> 00:58:09,440
a kind of hyperspace or a

1667
00:58:13,990 --> 00:58:11,520
hyperdimensional reality where you maybe

1668
00:58:15,750 --> 00:58:14,000
are post-biological right

1669
00:58:17,589 --> 00:58:15,760
but at this at the whole

1670
00:58:18,470 --> 00:58:17,599
the whole time this is happening

1671
00:58:19,430 --> 00:58:18,480
uh

1672
00:58:20,950 --> 00:58:19,440
you are

1673
00:58:24,230 --> 00:58:20,960
recognizing

1674
00:58:26,309 --> 00:58:24,240
that everything is connected

1675
00:58:28,150 --> 00:58:26,319
and as such

1676
00:58:30,150 --> 00:58:28,160
you now have become a being

1677
00:58:33,030 --> 00:58:30,160
who exists mostly as a light being who

1678
00:58:35,190 --> 00:58:33,040
is post biological and yet is connected

1679
00:58:37,910 --> 00:58:35,200
not only to everything but also

1680
00:58:39,430 --> 00:58:37,920
is very very in tune with this central

1681
00:58:41,510 --> 00:58:39,440
cosmic intelligence because again that's

1682
00:58:42,950 --> 00:58:41,520
one of my assumptions i think there's

1683
00:58:43,990 --> 00:58:42,960
strong evidence for the fact that there

1684
00:58:45,990 --> 00:58:44,000
is a

1685
00:58:47,510 --> 00:58:46,000
an underlying cosmic intelligence behind

1686
00:58:49,270 --> 00:58:47,520
everything

1687
00:58:51,109 --> 00:58:49,280
some people want to use the term god for

1688
00:58:53,030 --> 00:58:51,119
that for some people that's just too

1689
00:58:55,990 --> 00:58:53,040
loaded a term with religious baggage and

1690
00:58:57,030 --> 00:58:56,000
whatnot so use your term of choice

1691
00:58:58,789 --> 00:58:57,040
but

1692
00:59:01,109 --> 00:58:58,799
as they become in tune with all those

1693
00:59:02,950 --> 00:59:01,119
things and grow in all those capacities

1694
00:59:05,190 --> 00:59:02,960
to me they then may

1695
00:59:07,510 --> 00:59:05,200
out of their own sense of

1696
00:59:10,390 --> 00:59:07,520
much larger self-interest

1697
00:59:12,630 --> 00:59:10,400
act on behalf of the will of this cosmic

1698
00:59:14,150 --> 00:59:12,640
intelligence and when you think about it

1699
00:59:16,710 --> 00:59:14,160
that looks an awful lot like what we

1700
00:59:19,190 --> 00:59:16,720
would call an angel right it's a it's a

1701
00:59:21,190 --> 00:59:19,200
light being it's post biological it's in

1702
00:59:22,870 --> 00:59:21,200
tune with the cosmic intelligence its

1703
00:59:25,430 --> 00:59:22,880
will is aligned with the cosmic

1704
00:59:28,230 --> 00:59:25,440
intelligence because it's evolved that

1705
00:59:30,789 --> 00:59:28,240
degree and yet it's still part of

1706
00:59:33,030 --> 00:59:30,799
the evolutionary process of our cosmos

1707
00:59:35,109 --> 00:59:33,040
so that's where for me i feel like those

1708
00:59:37,190 --> 00:59:35,119
those this those hard distinctions

1709
00:59:39,109 --> 00:59:37,200
collapse and other possibilities that

1710
00:59:41,829 --> 00:59:39,119
are more interesting to me uh come

1711
00:59:45,990 --> 00:59:43,109
what are the

1712
00:59:49,030 --> 00:59:46,000
attributes of uh of that consciousness

1713
00:59:51,270 --> 00:59:49,040
at large i guess i do struggle with that

1714
00:59:54,069 --> 00:59:51,280
aspect because

1715
00:59:56,470 --> 00:59:54,079
you know is it um

1716
00:59:57,910 --> 00:59:56,480
is it as if in this sort of conscious

1717
01:00:01,270 --> 00:59:57,920
evolution

1718
01:00:04,069 --> 01:00:01,280
that there's a there's a kind of trigger

1719
01:00:06,150 --> 01:00:04,079
point or a line that gets crossed

1720
01:00:08,470 --> 01:00:06,160
in that journey to where

1721
01:00:10,309 --> 01:00:08,480
uh

1722
01:00:12,549 --> 01:00:10,319
as you kind of point out that this

1723
01:00:14,630 --> 01:00:12,559
greater alignment occurs

1724
01:00:16,230 --> 01:00:14,640
and behaviorally

1725
01:00:17,750 --> 01:00:16,240
these entities

1726
01:00:19,190 --> 01:00:17,760
uh you know

1727
01:00:21,430 --> 01:00:19,200
are

1728
01:00:22,870 --> 01:00:21,440
almost like more consistent or

1729
01:00:24,950 --> 01:00:22,880
homogeneous

1730
01:00:25,829 --> 01:00:24,960
with each other

1731
01:00:27,510 --> 01:00:25,839
or

1732
01:00:29,430 --> 01:00:27,520
is it that

1733
01:00:31,030 --> 01:00:29,440
just as we are

1734
01:00:32,789 --> 01:00:31,040
you know diverse

1735
01:00:35,270 --> 01:00:32,799
at our sort of level of conscious

1736
01:00:38,309 --> 01:00:35,280
development in our behavior

1737
01:00:40,630 --> 01:00:38,319
uh that that that too exists at these

1738
01:00:43,349 --> 01:00:40,640
higher levels

1739
01:00:46,069 --> 01:00:43,359
but i guess in what ways uh and so and

1740
01:00:49,030 --> 01:00:46,079
what i'm also trying to get at here is

1741
01:00:51,430 --> 01:00:49,040
you know what what at the base level are

1742
01:00:53,430 --> 01:00:51,440
the uh the kind of core attributes of

1743
01:00:55,109 --> 01:00:53,440
consciousness at large

1744
01:00:56,950 --> 01:00:55,119
is it the

1745
01:01:04,230 --> 01:00:56,960
is the

1746
01:01:06,150 --> 01:01:04,240
value to optimize for experience

1747
01:01:07,750 --> 01:01:06,160
you know sort of generally any

1748
01:01:09,270 --> 01:01:07,760
experience

1749
01:01:12,470 --> 01:01:09,280
or is it

1750
01:01:13,510 --> 01:01:12,480
uh you know certain kinds of experience

1751
01:01:14,309 --> 01:01:13,520
are

1752
01:01:16,630 --> 01:01:14,319
uh

1753
01:01:17,750 --> 01:01:16,640
you know valued greater to a greater

1754
01:01:19,990 --> 01:01:17,760
degree

1755
01:01:22,870 --> 01:01:20,000
over other types of experience

1756
01:01:25,430 --> 01:01:22,880
you know are we are we trending towards

1757
01:01:26,309 --> 01:01:25,440
uh you know sort of um

1758
01:01:28,710 --> 01:01:26,319
kind of

1759
01:01:31,589 --> 01:01:28,720
peaceful experience or the maximization

1760
01:01:34,470 --> 01:01:31,599
of of of peaceful interaction

1761
01:01:38,150 --> 01:01:34,480
amongst conscious entities is that you

1762
01:01:40,549 --> 01:01:38,160
know a desired uh sort of trajectory or

1763
01:01:42,789 --> 01:01:40,559
is the trajectory a

1764
01:01:45,910 --> 01:01:42,799
coexistence of

1765
01:01:48,309 --> 01:01:45,920
a diversity of uh of conscious

1766
01:01:50,870 --> 01:01:48,319
experience you know so i guess i do

1767
01:01:52,870 --> 01:01:50,880
struggle with that because there are

1768
01:01:55,430 --> 01:01:52,880
you know in my own background with you

1769
01:01:59,750 --> 01:01:55,440
know with faith and christianity

1770
01:02:02,390 --> 01:01:59,760
this notion uh that you know is

1771
01:02:04,710 --> 01:02:02,400
one sort of uh expression of christian

1772
01:02:06,870 --> 01:02:04,720
theology of

1773
01:02:08,789 --> 01:02:06,880
you know kind of heaven where everything

1774
01:02:10,150 --> 01:02:08,799
is a lot you know essentially like

1775
01:02:13,109 --> 01:02:10,160
homogeneous

1776
01:02:15,029 --> 01:02:13,119
with the will of god you know everyone's

1777
01:02:16,309 --> 01:02:15,039
singing from the same hymn book you know

1778
01:02:17,990 --> 01:02:16,319
essentially

1779
01:02:20,470 --> 01:02:18,000
that to me doesn't sound all that

1780
01:02:22,789 --> 01:02:20,480
exciting you know other than

1781
01:02:25,990 --> 01:02:22,799
you know you might get some some banging

1782
01:02:27,270 --> 01:02:26,000
music out of it but like we don't have

1783
01:02:30,390 --> 01:02:27,280
a lot of

1784
01:02:33,349 --> 01:02:30,400
uh you know where where are the things

1785
01:02:35,109 --> 01:02:33,359
that from my perspective at least

1786
01:02:38,150 --> 01:02:35,119
bring uh

1787
01:02:39,190 --> 01:02:38,160
you know levels of enjoyment and value

1788
01:02:44,470 --> 01:02:39,200
and

1789
01:02:47,829 --> 01:02:44,480
that that derive from our differences

1790
01:02:50,230 --> 01:02:47,839
and our disagreements so this is sort of

1791
01:02:52,789 --> 01:02:50,240
in many ways an argument for the value

1792
01:02:55,990 --> 01:02:52,799
of the disagreement you know that that

1793
01:02:58,789 --> 01:02:56,000
it creates these friction points

1794
01:03:02,710 --> 01:02:58,799
that that give rise to

1795
01:03:03,750 --> 01:03:02,720
you know novel experience new ideas

1796
01:03:05,430 --> 01:03:03,760
uh

1797
01:03:07,910 --> 01:03:05,440
you know and these are things in and of

1798
01:03:11,270 --> 01:03:07,920
themselves that are important

1799
01:03:13,750 --> 01:03:11,280
to not only our our lived experience how

1800
01:03:15,589 --> 01:03:13,760
we value the life that we have

1801
01:03:16,470 --> 01:03:15,599
but also our journey

1802
01:03:21,829 --> 01:03:16,480
you know

1803
01:03:24,390 --> 01:03:21,839
they they add to our experience they

1804
01:03:26,630 --> 01:03:24,400
they add and elevate that so i don't

1805
01:03:27,990 --> 01:03:26,640
know i i i know i've said quite a lot

1806
01:03:29,270 --> 01:03:28,000
there but i mean what's your take on

1807
01:03:31,510 --> 01:03:29,280
that is it

1808
01:03:32,390 --> 01:03:31,520
is is it really going to be

1809
01:03:34,710 --> 01:03:32,400
uh

1810
01:03:37,349 --> 01:03:34,720
you know sort of unidirectional or is it

1811
01:03:40,870 --> 01:03:37,359
omnidirectional in terms of uh

1812
01:03:42,950 --> 01:03:40,880
of of what types of experiences are

1813
01:03:44,390 --> 01:03:42,960
made manifest you know across the

1814
01:03:46,630 --> 01:03:44,400
spectrum

1815
01:03:49,990 --> 01:03:46,640
right i mean i think my

1816
01:03:53,430 --> 01:03:50,000
the the answer is yes and yes

1817
01:03:55,349 --> 01:03:53,440
next question no i'm just joking um

1818
01:03:56,390 --> 01:03:55,359
what i mean by that is yes i agree with

1819
01:03:58,549 --> 01:03:56,400
you that

1820
01:04:00,870 --> 01:03:58,559
both of those things are valuable and

1821
01:04:03,750 --> 01:04:00,880
and like we talked earlier about

1822
01:04:06,309 --> 01:04:03,760
um trying to defend the marginalized

1823
01:04:07,589 --> 01:04:06,319
while also maximizing for

1824
01:04:09,510 --> 01:04:07,599
free speech

1825
01:04:11,589 --> 01:04:09,520
is a challenging equation you know and

1826
01:04:13,109 --> 01:04:11,599
we want to value both and and recognize

1827
01:04:14,710 --> 01:04:13,119
that there's

1828
01:04:16,470 --> 01:04:14,720
challenges either way

1829
01:04:19,190 --> 01:04:16,480
so what i would say is that

1830
01:04:21,430 --> 01:04:19,200
you know uh you know that i'm a fan of

1831
01:04:23,190 --> 01:04:21,440
bernardo castro's work and he's talked

1832
01:04:24,630 --> 01:04:23,200
about

1833
01:04:26,230 --> 01:04:24,640
initially when you had this kind of

1834
01:04:27,430 --> 01:04:26,240
cosmic intelligence which was one

1835
01:04:28,549 --> 01:04:27,440
intelligence right and that was

1836
01:04:29,910 --> 01:04:28,559
everything

1837
01:04:32,150 --> 01:04:29,920
and then through a proce a kind of

1838
01:04:34,309 --> 01:04:32,160
process of disassociation

1839
01:04:36,069 --> 01:04:34,319
you have it breaking off into little

1840
01:04:38,710 --> 01:04:36,079
units subunits

1841
01:04:40,789 --> 01:04:38,720
where that created this sense of i-ness

1842
01:04:42,309 --> 01:04:40,799
that was now disconnected from the

1843
01:04:43,589 --> 01:04:42,319
totality right

1844
01:04:45,829 --> 01:04:43,599
and that

1845
01:04:48,950 --> 01:04:45,839
not only us as a species but as us us as

1846
01:04:51,589 --> 01:04:48,960
individuals is a tiny

1847
01:04:54,390 --> 01:04:51,599
you know atomic structure representing a

1848
01:04:56,069 --> 01:04:54,400
break off from that cosmic intelligence

1849
01:04:58,230 --> 01:04:56,079
and you could ask well why is that

1850
01:04:59,589 --> 01:04:58,240
useful why would that even happen

1851
01:05:02,630 --> 01:04:59,599
and i would argue it's for the very

1852
01:05:05,349 --> 01:05:02,640
reason you pointed to this this sense of

1853
01:05:08,549 --> 01:05:05,359
it gives rise to creativity and novel

1854
01:05:10,230 --> 01:05:08,559
experience and novel interpretation

1855
01:05:12,230 --> 01:05:10,240
and

1856
01:05:13,750 --> 01:05:12,240
that while you have a nice clean picture

1857
01:05:15,589 --> 01:05:13,760
when you have one intelligence that

1858
01:05:16,950 --> 01:05:15,599
agrees with itself

1859
01:05:19,109 --> 01:05:16,960
it's not very dynamic and there's

1860
01:05:21,029 --> 01:05:19,119
nowhere to grow so through this process

1861
01:05:23,910 --> 01:05:21,039
of a disassociation

1862
01:05:25,190 --> 01:05:23,920
through species and individuals

1863
01:05:27,990 --> 01:05:25,200
there is this

1864
01:05:30,630 --> 01:05:28,000
climbing back up the ladder then of

1865
01:05:33,430 --> 01:05:30,640
having new experiences novel experiences

1866
01:05:34,630 --> 01:05:33,440
creativity burgeoning in the cosmos

1867
01:05:36,630 --> 01:05:34,640
but also

1868
01:05:40,309 --> 01:05:36,640
as part of that evolutionary process of

1869
01:05:45,190 --> 01:05:42,549
sort of regaining the memory that wait a

1870
01:05:46,309 --> 01:05:45,200
second i'm from this thing i broke off

1871
01:05:48,789 --> 01:05:46,319
from this thing and that and that's sort

1872
01:05:51,270 --> 01:05:48,799
of like a non-dual perspective in terms

1873
01:05:52,630 --> 01:05:51,280
of spirituality is that

1874
01:05:55,109 --> 01:05:52,640
you recognize that you're ultimately

1875
01:05:57,029 --> 01:05:55,119
connected to everything so

1876
01:05:57,910 --> 01:05:57,039
it's kind of this beautiful experiment

1877
01:06:00,470 --> 01:05:57,920
where

1878
01:06:02,789 --> 01:06:00,480
you do value novel experience you do

1879
01:06:04,630 --> 01:06:02,799
value different perspectives

1880
01:06:06,470 --> 01:06:04,640
but while that happens and it gets more

1881
01:06:07,910 --> 01:06:06,480
colorful picture like a cuisine where

1882
01:06:08,870 --> 01:06:07,920
you've got a menu with all these

1883
01:06:10,309 --> 01:06:08,880
different

1884
01:06:12,630 --> 01:06:10,319
you know menu options from around the

1885
01:06:15,190 --> 01:06:12,640
world who would want only mexican food

1886
01:06:17,029 --> 01:06:15,200
or only you know fish and chips in the

1887
01:06:19,430 --> 01:06:17,039
uk or something i mean

1888
01:06:21,190 --> 01:06:19,440
um or borscht you know in russia or

1889
01:06:22,150 --> 01:06:21,200
whatever you mean you want all of that

1890
01:06:24,309 --> 01:06:22,160
right that's when it gets really

1891
01:06:26,710 --> 01:06:24,319
colorful and and just

1892
01:06:27,510 --> 01:06:26,720
erupting with flavor and diversity right

1893
01:06:33,029 --> 01:06:27,520
that

1894
01:06:35,349 --> 01:06:33,039
ideally

1895
01:06:37,349 --> 01:06:35,359
you don't crush out the complexity you

1896
01:06:39,750 --> 01:06:37,359
don't crush out the differences you

1897
01:06:43,430 --> 01:06:39,760
value the differences you have this much

1898
01:06:45,910 --> 01:06:43,440
more robust complex interesting

1899
01:06:49,510 --> 01:06:45,920
multi-faceted perspective that you bring

1900
01:06:50,789 --> 01:06:49,520
all of that novelty while also moving to

1901
01:06:52,710 --> 01:06:50,799
this

1902
01:06:55,029 --> 01:06:52,720
remembrance that somehow it's all

1903
01:06:57,029 --> 01:06:55,039
connected so that's the ideal i think is

1904
01:06:59,349 --> 01:06:57,039
that you go through that process of this

1905
01:07:01,829 --> 01:06:59,359
disassociation you get novel experience

1906
01:07:04,470 --> 01:07:01,839
novel perspectives but eventually you

1907
01:07:05,670 --> 01:07:04,480
also find this kind of unifying

1908
01:07:11,349 --> 01:07:05,680
um

1909
01:07:13,270 --> 01:07:11,359
and that seems like in a nutshell what i

1910
01:07:16,390 --> 01:07:13,280
would say is is the cosmic dance that

1911
01:07:21,750 --> 01:07:19,270
thank you for breaking that down um very

1912
01:07:24,069 --> 01:07:21,760
helpful i think um

1913
01:07:26,230 --> 01:07:24,079
i wanted to come back to as we kind of

1914
01:07:28,789 --> 01:07:26,240
turned our attention toward the

1915
01:07:30,069 --> 01:07:28,799
the back end of the show uh i wanted to

1916
01:07:32,069 --> 01:07:30,079
come back to something that we touched

1917
01:07:34,789 --> 01:07:32,079
on earlier and that we've talked about

1918
01:07:38,230 --> 01:07:34,799
uh in in other conversations but you

1919
01:07:40,390 --> 01:07:38,240
know that is this notion of

1920
01:07:43,270 --> 01:07:40,400
of how we arrive

1921
01:07:45,589 --> 01:07:43,280
uh at a consensus um

1922
01:07:47,270 --> 01:07:45,599
you know sort of generally you know we

1923
01:07:49,109 --> 01:07:47,280
could argue let's put a hypothetical you

1924
01:07:52,549 --> 01:07:49,119
know eventually let's say sometime in

1925
01:07:55,430 --> 01:07:52,559
the next few years uh we get uh you know

1926
01:07:57,589 --> 01:07:55,440
a clear governmental uh statement

1927
01:07:59,190 --> 01:07:57,599
uh something that's unambiguous you know

1928
01:08:02,390 --> 01:07:59,200
that we're not alone

1929
01:08:04,390 --> 01:08:02,400
uh that uh here we have some some craft

1930
01:08:06,069 --> 01:08:04,400
we've been working on and you know we

1931
01:08:08,230 --> 01:08:06,079
think there's some species we know at

1932
01:08:10,630 --> 01:08:08,240
least of three you know

1933
01:08:12,390 --> 01:08:10,640
just something that's more concrete

1934
01:08:13,430 --> 01:08:12,400
than we have now

1935
01:08:16,470 --> 01:08:13,440
um

1936
01:08:17,829 --> 01:08:16,480
what are the ways that you foresee

1937
01:08:21,990 --> 01:08:17,839
uh our

1938
01:08:24,229 --> 01:08:22,000
uh sort of society and our our our our

1939
01:08:27,030 --> 01:08:24,239
discourse arriving at a kind of

1940
01:08:28,390 --> 01:08:27,040
consensus that can kind of digest that

1941
01:08:31,669 --> 01:08:28,400
information

1942
01:08:34,309 --> 01:08:31,679
and say yeah that that i also agree that

1943
01:08:37,510 --> 01:08:34,319
that is what is happening um you know i

1944
01:08:40,149 --> 01:08:37,520
find it interesting that we

1945
01:08:42,550 --> 01:08:40,159
we have hot takes on everything uh and

1946
01:08:44,229 --> 01:08:42,560
even from those who are the the most

1947
01:08:46,390 --> 01:08:44,239
credentialed people

1948
01:08:48,309 --> 01:08:46,400
in our societies you know saying certain

1949
01:08:51,829 --> 01:08:48,319
things to us

1950
01:08:54,229 --> 01:08:51,839
uh we are pretty quick to

1951
01:08:56,870 --> 01:08:54,239
you know second guess that judgment

1952
01:08:58,789 --> 01:08:56,880
and uh and and substitute a totally

1953
01:09:00,550 --> 01:08:58,799
different narrative you know even though

1954
01:09:02,309 --> 01:09:00,560
we don't have the kind of experience

1955
01:09:03,829 --> 01:09:02,319
that they have so you know how do you

1956
01:09:05,110 --> 01:09:03,839
see that playing out do you think

1957
01:09:07,189 --> 01:09:05,120
there's going to be

1958
01:09:09,030 --> 01:09:07,199
a very kind of public debate about this

1959
01:09:11,269 --> 01:09:09,040
that eventually we will

1960
01:09:13,749 --> 01:09:11,279
kind of work our way toward a consensus

1961
01:09:15,590 --> 01:09:13,759
or will we kind of maybe forever be

1962
01:09:16,390 --> 01:09:15,600
divided in some ways on what it really

1963
01:09:18,550 --> 01:09:16,400
is

1964
01:09:21,669 --> 01:09:18,560
right i think the the interesting

1965
01:09:24,229 --> 01:09:21,679
question within that question for me is

1966
01:09:26,309 --> 01:09:24,239
how much disclosure can you get

1967
01:09:28,070 --> 01:09:26,319
without opening up more questions than

1968
01:09:30,709 --> 01:09:28,080
you answered right

1969
01:09:32,470 --> 01:09:30,719
and uh if we could just

1970
01:09:34,550 --> 01:09:32,480
i've used this you know analogy of a

1971
01:09:35,910 --> 01:09:34,560
cherry on top of you know the cake or

1972
01:09:37,430 --> 01:09:35,920
something

1973
01:09:39,590 --> 01:09:37,440
that always feels good right when you've

1974
01:09:41,749 --> 01:09:39,600
got like 90 of a picture and then ah

1975
01:09:43,749 --> 01:09:41,759
there we go you know

1976
01:09:45,189 --> 01:09:43,759
perfecto it's uh now it's now it's fully

1977
01:09:46,390 --> 01:09:45,199
complete and and we've talked about this

1978
01:09:48,870 --> 01:09:46,400
before

1979
01:09:50,709 --> 01:09:48,880
you know kind of laughingly uh at the

1980
01:09:53,110 --> 01:09:50,719
end of the 19th century you know the

1981
01:09:53,749 --> 01:09:53,120
scientific revolution was fully in gear

1982
01:09:55,350 --> 01:09:53,759
and

1983
01:09:57,910 --> 01:09:55,360
people would literally say things like

1984
01:10:00,149 --> 01:09:57,920
we're 99 there and under understanding

1985
01:10:03,110 --> 01:10:00,159
reality now it's just fine tuning

1986
01:10:04,950 --> 01:10:03,120
and then the quantum world erupted upon

1987
01:10:06,390 --> 01:10:04,960
uh our

1988
01:10:09,030 --> 01:10:06,400
psych escapes

1989
01:10:10,310 --> 01:10:09,040
and everything was undone right and and

1990
01:10:12,709 --> 01:10:10,320
everything we thought we knew we didn't

1991
01:10:14,709 --> 01:10:12,719
we didn't know anymore and i think to

1992
01:10:17,830 --> 01:10:14,719
many to a great degree we're still

1993
01:10:20,950 --> 01:10:17,840
wrestling with that implication

1994
01:10:23,270 --> 01:10:22,390
it's funny how you'll hear different

1995
01:10:25,270 --> 01:10:23,280
people

1996
01:10:26,950 --> 01:10:25,280
making again really strong arguments one

1997
01:10:28,229 --> 01:10:26,960
way or the other so i remember even

1998
01:10:31,510 --> 01:10:28,239
recently

1999
01:10:34,390 --> 01:10:31,520
you know reviewing some of um

2000
01:10:36,870 --> 01:10:34,400
colonel corso's work um around roswell

2001
01:10:38,149 --> 01:10:36,880
and and his frustration you know that

2002
01:10:40,709 --> 01:10:38,159
this wasn't

2003
01:10:42,870 --> 01:10:40,719
being shared with the people right that

2004
01:10:44,870 --> 01:10:42,880
and he he would like you know

2005
01:10:46,790 --> 01:10:44,880
in indignation say

2006
01:10:47,590 --> 01:10:46,800
the young people can handle it you know

2007
01:10:50,870 --> 01:10:47,600
like

2008
01:10:53,350 --> 01:10:50,880
i i i fought with 19 year olds and they

2009
01:10:54,950 --> 01:10:53,360
they fought the best you know nations in

2010
01:10:57,430 --> 01:10:54,960
the world the best armies in the world

2011
01:10:59,990 --> 01:10:57,440
and they they rose to the challenge

2012
01:11:01,669 --> 01:11:00,000
why do our secret keepers believe that

2013
01:11:03,270 --> 01:11:01,679
we can't handle it right instead the

2014
01:11:05,350 --> 01:11:03,280
whole jack nicholson thing you can't

2015
01:11:07,030 --> 01:11:05,360
handle the truth right

2016
01:11:08,229 --> 01:11:07,040
i know better so i'm gonna withhold it

2017
01:11:09,830 --> 01:11:08,239
from you

2018
01:11:11,669 --> 01:11:09,840
so on the one hand you hear again we're

2019
01:11:13,189 --> 01:11:11,679
gonna argue from new for a nuance here

2020
01:11:14,149 --> 01:11:13,199
on the one hand you hear some people who

2021
01:11:15,910 --> 01:11:14,159
say

2022
01:11:20,470 --> 01:11:15,920
um

2023
01:11:25,430 --> 01:11:22,149
first problem with that is that it

2024
01:11:27,590 --> 01:11:25,440
assumes there's a one us right like as

2025
01:11:29,669 --> 01:11:27,600
if we are one human civilization pretty

2026
01:11:31,430 --> 01:11:29,679
much all have the same perspective and

2027
01:11:32,390 --> 01:11:31,440
we've already shown evidence that we can

2028
01:11:35,030 --> 01:11:32,400
handle

2029
01:11:36,709 --> 01:11:35,040
novel information uh in a healthy way

2030
01:11:37,990 --> 01:11:36,719
and and sort of bring it into our

2031
01:11:40,070 --> 01:11:38,000
worldview and

2032
01:11:42,229 --> 01:11:40,080
spend a little time digesting and then

2033
01:11:43,590 --> 01:11:42,239
we move on as if there's no problem but

2034
01:11:45,669 --> 01:11:43,600
of course that's not the nature of the

2035
01:11:47,510 --> 01:11:45,679
world and i actually think that's a

2036
01:11:48,790 --> 01:11:47,520
naive perspective when people argue for

2037
01:11:50,630 --> 01:11:48,800
that because

2038
01:11:54,390 --> 01:11:50,640
um as we've talked about before in this

2039
01:11:57,189 --> 01:11:54,400
show and i've talked on poc about uh you

2040
01:11:59,189 --> 01:11:57,199
know there's a reason why people say

2041
01:12:01,189 --> 01:11:59,199
for instance when

2042
01:12:02,950 --> 01:12:01,199
the allies went to war sort of with or

2043
01:12:04,229 --> 01:12:02,960
at least a cold war or a kind of silent

2044
01:12:06,229 --> 01:12:04,239
war against

2045
01:12:08,550 --> 01:12:06,239
you know middle eastern islamic

2046
01:12:11,990 --> 01:12:08,560
fundamentalism they would call that a

2047
01:12:13,910 --> 01:12:12,000
clash of civilizations right and in that

2048
01:12:15,669 --> 01:12:13,920
expression itself it demonstrates that

2049
01:12:17,510 --> 01:12:15,679
you can have more than one civilization

2050
01:12:19,590 --> 01:12:17,520
civilization on the same planet at the

2051
01:12:20,950 --> 01:12:19,600
same time and we absolutely do we have

2052
01:12:23,110 --> 01:12:20,960
multiple ones

2053
01:12:25,270 --> 01:12:23,120
as i pointed out before there are three

2054
01:12:27,110 --> 01:12:25,280
main world views just within the united

2055
01:12:29,910 --> 01:12:27,120
states you know where people hold to

2056
01:12:30,630 --> 01:12:29,920
very different notions of reality

2057
01:12:33,030 --> 01:12:30,640
so

2058
01:12:34,709 --> 01:12:33,040
what it means the implications will be

2059
01:12:36,630 --> 01:12:34,719
interpreted differently

2060
01:12:38,470 --> 01:12:36,640
digested internalized differently

2061
01:12:40,550 --> 01:12:38,480
depending on which worldview

2062
01:12:42,520 --> 01:12:40,560
you hold to

2063
01:12:45,270 --> 01:12:42,530
and i don't know that

2064
01:12:47,830 --> 01:12:45,280
[Music]

2065
01:12:50,310 --> 01:12:47,840
if you say well it turns out these ones

2066
01:12:51,830 --> 01:12:50,320
exist we know they exist and just you

2067
01:12:54,860 --> 01:12:51,840
know they happen to be popping in from

2068
01:12:56,149 --> 01:12:54,870
from a parallel reality

2069
01:12:58,870 --> 01:12:56,159
[Music]

2070
01:12:59,669 --> 01:12:58,880
that that you know that says what what

2071
01:13:00,950 --> 01:12:59,679
wait

2072
01:13:02,790 --> 01:13:00,960
there's other realities what are you

2073
01:13:03,830 --> 01:13:02,800
saying what does that mean for me and

2074
01:13:06,470 --> 01:13:03,840
are you saying there's another version

2075
01:13:07,510 --> 01:13:06,480
of me like you know a million times over

2076
01:13:09,030 --> 01:13:07,520
and

2077
01:13:10,149 --> 01:13:09,040
if i just don't like this life should i

2078
01:13:12,149 --> 01:13:10,159
just shut it down because maybe i'm

2079
01:13:14,550 --> 01:13:12,159
better over there i mean it opens up so

2080
01:13:16,870 --> 01:13:14,560
many questions right so

2081
01:13:18,470 --> 01:13:16,880
again if it's just et then that's

2082
01:13:20,390 --> 01:13:18,480
somewhat simpler right because it fits

2083
01:13:22,390 --> 01:13:20,400
within our current paradigm

2084
01:13:24,390 --> 01:13:22,400
kind of our materialist space-time

2085
01:13:27,110 --> 01:13:24,400
construct where we say

2086
01:13:29,350 --> 01:13:27,120
turns out sure enough you know

2087
01:13:31,510 --> 01:13:29,360
alpha centauri has this one

2088
01:13:32,950 --> 01:13:31,520
system of three planets that are like

2089
01:13:33,910 --> 01:13:32,960
highly evolved and they've they've come

2090
01:13:35,590 --> 01:13:33,920
here and they've been here for a long

2091
01:13:37,669 --> 01:13:35,600
time and in fact they've been managing

2092
01:13:39,430 --> 01:13:37,679
our evolution we go okay

2093
01:13:41,669 --> 01:13:39,440
that that fits with our current paradigm

2094
01:13:43,270 --> 01:13:41,679
of science and and exploration it feels

2095
01:13:45,430 --> 01:13:43,280
very star trek-y

2096
01:13:47,510 --> 01:13:45,440
right but

2097
01:13:49,030 --> 01:13:47,520
i'm pretty convinced the answer is much

2098
01:13:51,830 --> 01:13:49,040
more complex than that and of course

2099
01:13:54,390 --> 01:13:51,840
people like jacques valet and john keel

2100
01:13:56,390 --> 01:13:54,400
came to the conclusion decades ago and

2101
01:13:58,470 --> 01:13:56,400
to many degree to a great degree the

2102
01:14:00,390 --> 01:13:58,480
world is still catching up to them

2103
01:14:01,750 --> 01:14:00,400
based on the evidence they sought not

2104
01:14:04,149 --> 01:14:01,760
because that was their preferred

2105
01:14:06,229 --> 01:14:04,159
hypothesis they actually began

2106
01:14:07,590 --> 01:14:06,239
believing the et hypothesis was probably

2107
01:14:09,270 --> 01:14:07,600
most likely

2108
01:14:11,030 --> 01:14:09,280
because of that was the cultural milieu

2109
01:14:12,790 --> 01:14:11,040
they grew up in just like us

2110
01:14:14,550 --> 01:14:12,800
but they the data convinced them

2111
01:14:18,709 --> 01:14:14,560
otherwise that it's much more complex

2112
01:14:21,430 --> 01:14:20,070
for me it

2113
01:14:22,870 --> 01:14:21,440
answering one question in the

2114
01:14:25,189 --> 01:14:22,880
affirmative

2115
01:14:27,350 --> 01:14:25,199
opens up many many

2116
01:14:29,910 --> 01:14:27,360
troubling questions people the questions

2117
01:14:32,630 --> 01:14:29,920
that people will perceive as troubling

2118
01:14:33,830 --> 01:14:32,640
it's a pandora's box right if you say it

2119
01:14:36,950 --> 01:14:33,840
turns out

2120
01:14:38,870 --> 01:14:36,960
there are others here and they don't fit

2121
01:14:40,709 --> 01:14:38,880
with our current model of what

2122
01:14:42,950 --> 01:14:40,719
constitutes reality

2123
01:14:44,070 --> 01:14:42,960
i mean is that going to be chaos is that

2124
01:14:45,750 --> 01:14:44,080
going to be

2125
01:14:49,270 --> 01:14:45,760
you know

2126
01:14:51,110 --> 01:14:49,280
critic a class of civilizations because

2127
01:14:52,390 --> 01:14:51,120
one side just like we talk about ufo

2128
01:14:53,830 --> 01:14:52,400
twitter right one side's convinced

2129
01:14:55,830 --> 01:14:53,840
they're demonic and other sides believes

2130
01:14:58,310 --> 01:14:55,840
it's their love and light another side

2131
01:15:00,950 --> 01:14:58,320
believes they're kind of symbiotic et's

2132
01:15:02,149 --> 01:15:00,960
or interdimensionals

2133
01:15:03,669 --> 01:15:02,159
it's one thing when you have arguments

2134
01:15:05,030 --> 01:15:03,679
on twitter when you have entire

2135
01:15:07,270 --> 01:15:05,040
societies

2136
01:15:09,189 --> 01:15:07,280
rallying around one perspective based on

2137
01:15:10,790 --> 01:15:09,199
this new revelation

2138
01:15:12,870 --> 01:15:10,800
then they might very well feel that

2139
01:15:14,310 --> 01:15:12,880
they're justified in going to war with

2140
01:15:15,669 --> 01:15:14,320
each other because they're so convinced

2141
01:15:17,590 --> 01:15:15,679
of their notion

2142
01:15:19,830 --> 01:15:17,600
and that this is uh if this is the end

2143
01:15:21,430 --> 01:15:19,840
times this if this is the you know

2144
01:15:23,030 --> 01:15:21,440
the rise of the antichrist and i'm

2145
01:15:25,030 --> 01:15:23,040
justified in going to war with this

2146
01:15:27,030 --> 01:15:25,040
other nation who doesn't see that right

2147
01:15:28,630 --> 01:15:27,040
i mean i'm not saying that's a right

2148
01:15:30,310 --> 01:15:28,640
perspective i'm saying some people will

2149
01:15:31,830 --> 01:15:30,320
come to that conclusion

2150
01:15:34,310 --> 01:15:31,840
so

2151
01:15:35,830 --> 01:15:34,320
tricky days ahead for sure i mean it

2152
01:15:37,910 --> 01:15:35,840
it's it's

2153
01:15:39,750 --> 01:15:37,920
but i guess you could argue that we are

2154
01:15:42,229 --> 01:15:39,760
already in such tricky times with our

2155
01:15:44,149 --> 01:15:42,239
tribalism and our capacity to destroy

2156
01:15:46,229 --> 01:15:44,159
ourselves in many many different ways

2157
01:15:47,990 --> 01:15:46,239
and how our technology has eclipsed our

2158
01:15:50,470 --> 01:15:48,000
consciousness this sort of center of

2159
01:15:53,510 --> 01:15:50,480
consciousness by such a degree that you

2160
01:15:55,669 --> 01:15:53,520
almost could ask is that instability

2161
01:15:58,790 --> 01:15:55,679
that would inevitably come with these

2162
01:16:00,550 --> 01:15:58,800
revelations actually potentially plant

2163
01:16:02,229 --> 01:16:00,560
the seeds for something unifying that's

2164
01:16:04,070 --> 01:16:02,239
actually better than what we have now

2165
01:16:06,229 --> 01:16:04,080
and is that maybe even the calculus that

2166
01:16:07,830 --> 01:16:06,239
these others have taken in to

2167
01:16:09,430 --> 01:16:07,840
consideration and that's why they're you

2168
01:16:10,870 --> 01:16:09,440
know ramping up their presence and then

2169
01:16:12,229 --> 01:16:10,880
you think about

2170
01:16:16,149 --> 01:16:12,239
jacques villa's control system

2171
01:16:18,070 --> 01:16:16,159
hypothesis and then doing just enough

2172
01:16:19,750 --> 01:16:18,080
to manage our evolution and that you

2173
01:16:21,830 --> 01:16:19,760
shouldn't take anything at face value

2174
01:16:23,750 --> 01:16:21,840
because it's more like a lever that's

2175
01:16:26,149 --> 01:16:23,760
meant to shift our direction just enough

2176
01:16:27,990 --> 01:16:26,159
to keep us alive and

2177
01:16:30,310 --> 01:16:28,000
help to evolve our consciousness for the

2178
01:16:32,830 --> 01:16:30,320
long term so that was a very complex

2179
01:16:35,910 --> 01:16:32,840
question answer to your question

2180
01:16:38,950 --> 01:16:35,920
sorry no it's great and you went exactly

2181
01:16:39,910 --> 01:16:38,960
where i was about to go and that is at

2182
01:16:42,310 --> 01:16:39,920
each

2183
01:16:44,070 --> 01:16:42,320
sort of epoch that we have been through

2184
01:16:46,470 --> 01:16:44,080
on this planet

2185
01:16:49,189 --> 01:16:46,480
there are revelatory

2186
01:16:52,630 --> 01:16:49,199
time periods that essentially lead to an

2187
01:16:54,870 --> 01:16:52,640
apocalypse you know the the the end of a

2188
01:16:58,550 --> 01:16:54,880
way of of experiencing

2189
01:17:01,590 --> 01:16:58,560
of knowing of being

2190
01:17:04,229 --> 01:17:01,600
arrives and a new way is born

2191
01:17:05,750 --> 01:17:04,239
you know that that there are some truths

2192
01:17:09,910 --> 01:17:05,760
there are some

2193
01:17:12,790 --> 01:17:09,920
uh revelatory uh you know experiences

2194
01:17:15,430 --> 01:17:12,800
that are so profound you know

2195
01:17:17,830 --> 01:17:15,440
so dynamic that they they are they

2196
01:17:20,950 --> 01:17:17,840
literally end the civilization

2197
01:17:23,030 --> 01:17:20,960
and and that is i think you know we

2198
01:17:24,550 --> 01:17:23,040
often interpret that very flatly as like

2199
01:17:26,709 --> 01:17:24,560
ah you know everybody's wiped out and

2200
01:17:29,030 --> 01:17:26,719
they're gone but it's it's much more

2201
01:17:30,950 --> 01:17:29,040
metaphorical you know like you can't go

2202
01:17:32,229 --> 01:17:30,960
home again you know

2203
01:17:34,550 --> 01:17:32,239
um

2204
01:17:36,950 --> 01:17:34,560
once you arrive at that place you you

2205
01:17:39,830 --> 01:17:36,960
have only one option and that's to go

2206
01:17:42,709 --> 01:17:39,840
forward into a new future that is

2207
01:17:44,950 --> 01:17:42,719
completely foreign to you

2208
01:17:46,630 --> 01:17:44,960
and it could very well be that that's

2209
01:17:48,149 --> 01:17:46,640
you know that we are on the precipice of

2210
01:17:51,030 --> 01:17:48,159
that whether

2211
01:17:52,070 --> 01:17:51,040
you know it strikes me whether that is

2212
01:17:54,070 --> 01:17:52,080
uh

2213
01:17:55,990 --> 01:17:54,080
you know sort of um

2214
01:17:57,030 --> 01:17:56,000
precipitated by the

2215
01:17:58,870 --> 01:17:57,040
uh

2216
01:18:01,110 --> 01:17:58,880
rival of the others or disclosure or

2217
01:18:03,510 --> 01:18:01,120
whether it comes about through something

2218
01:18:05,350 --> 01:18:03,520
of our own design you know i i was

2219
01:18:06,790 --> 01:18:05,360
reminded recently

2220
01:18:09,590 --> 01:18:06,800
um

2221
01:18:11,270 --> 01:18:09,600
listening to an episode of

2222
01:18:13,110 --> 01:18:11,280
the lex friedman podcast where he was

2223
01:18:14,870 --> 01:18:13,120
talking with someone about artificial

2224
01:18:16,630 --> 01:18:14,880
intelligence and just you know i think

2225
01:18:18,310 --> 01:18:16,640
it was um

2226
01:18:19,430 --> 01:18:18,320
oh actually i'm sorry with sam harris

2227
01:18:21,270 --> 01:18:19,440
talking with eric schmidt that

2228
01:18:22,550 --> 01:18:21,280
artificial intelligence

2229
01:18:24,550 --> 01:18:22,560
and uh

2230
01:18:27,910 --> 01:18:24,560
just the degree to which we're already

2231
01:18:30,709 --> 01:18:27,920
interacting with you know sort of

2232
01:18:33,750 --> 01:18:30,719
a type of intelligence not quite

2233
01:18:36,149 --> 01:18:33,760
you know what we would call conscious uh

2234
01:18:38,070 --> 01:18:36,159
but it's doing things and and it will be

2235
01:18:40,390 --> 01:18:38,080
capable of doing things that

2236
01:18:41,669 --> 01:18:40,400
that we really don't understand you know

2237
01:18:43,590 --> 01:18:41,679
like we

2238
01:18:45,910 --> 01:18:43,600
the algorithms and the and the

2239
01:18:48,630 --> 01:18:45,920
complexity of these systems

2240
01:18:50,550 --> 01:18:48,640
are such that no one person really

2241
01:18:52,310 --> 01:18:50,560
understands exactly how it's doing

2242
01:18:54,950 --> 01:18:52,320
whatever it's doing

2243
01:18:57,270 --> 01:18:54,960
but it will dramatically change the way

2244
01:18:59,830 --> 01:18:57,280
that we interact with our world on an

2245
01:19:01,830 --> 01:18:59,840
individual and societal level

2246
01:19:03,350 --> 01:19:01,840
so we're we're at a time period in

2247
01:19:04,870 --> 01:19:03,360
history where

2248
01:19:07,030 --> 01:19:04,880
one way or the other

2249
01:19:08,550 --> 01:19:07,040
you know it is not going to be the same

2250
01:19:10,070 --> 01:19:08,560
as it has been in the past and the

2251
01:19:12,630 --> 01:19:10,080
future is going to get pretty weird i

2252
01:19:14,709 --> 01:19:12,640
think pretty fast

2253
01:19:16,630 --> 01:19:14,719
and so you know to sort of look at this

2254
01:19:18,310 --> 01:19:16,640
from the perspective of

2255
01:19:20,950 --> 01:19:18,320
um

2256
01:19:22,630 --> 01:19:20,960
you know navigating that and holding you

2257
01:19:23,830 --> 01:19:22,640
know holding strong convictions and

2258
01:19:25,350 --> 01:19:23,840
opinions

2259
01:19:27,030 --> 01:19:25,360
you know i think we're all going to be

2260
01:19:29,669 --> 01:19:27,040
in a position where

2261
01:19:32,310 --> 01:19:29,679
the things that we

2262
01:19:34,390 --> 01:19:32,320
have held on to as being

2263
01:19:36,550 --> 01:19:34,400
the the kind of the beliefs that are the

2264
01:19:38,310 --> 01:19:36,560
rocks for you know that our houses our

2265
01:19:39,830 --> 01:19:38,320
foundations are built on

2266
01:19:41,750 --> 01:19:39,840
that those are all going to be

2267
01:19:42,950 --> 01:19:41,760
challenged you know so we really are

2268
01:19:45,910 --> 01:19:42,960
going to have to

2269
01:19:49,669 --> 01:19:45,920
i think prepare ourselves mentally

2270
01:19:51,110 --> 01:19:49,679
for this arrival uh and and

2271
01:19:52,630 --> 01:19:51,120
you know and you can't just like you

2272
01:19:53,910 --> 01:19:52,640
can't be prepared for the birth of your

2273
01:19:56,149 --> 01:19:53,920
first child

2274
01:19:58,229 --> 01:19:56,159
uh you can't be prepared for this

2275
01:20:00,390 --> 01:19:58,239
but you can you know do a few things to

2276
01:20:02,870 --> 01:20:00,400
try and be prepared you know you can get

2277
01:20:04,310 --> 01:20:02,880
a little caught up you can you know pair

2278
01:20:05,750 --> 01:20:04,320
the nursery you know you can get some

2279
01:20:07,590 --> 01:20:05,760
clothes you know you can do the the

2280
01:20:10,310 --> 01:20:07,600
kinds of things that that that makes

2281
01:20:12,070 --> 01:20:10,320
sense to do and when we can kind of see

2282
01:20:13,990 --> 01:20:12,080
it on the horizon there are some things

2283
01:20:14,950 --> 01:20:14,000
we can do right now i think that makes

2284
01:20:17,189 --> 01:20:14,960
sense

2285
01:20:19,669 --> 01:20:17,199
uh and and hopefully we're paying

2286
01:20:21,270 --> 01:20:19,679
attention enough to to do that uh in a

2287
01:20:22,709 --> 01:20:21,280
way that helps us navigate this

2288
01:20:25,669 --> 01:20:22,719
transition

2289
01:20:27,270 --> 01:20:25,679
in a safe and healthy way as possible

2290
01:20:29,590 --> 01:20:27,280
because we don't you know we don't live

2291
01:20:31,910 --> 01:20:29,600
on an island you know we do we do

2292
01:20:33,750 --> 01:20:31,920
uh rub shoulders and you know bump

2293
01:20:36,550 --> 01:20:33,760
elbows all the time so how do we you

2294
01:20:38,470 --> 01:20:36,560
know kind of arrive at that point and

2295
01:20:41,350 --> 01:20:38,480
and cross that boundary without you know

2296
01:20:43,590 --> 01:20:41,360
completely annihilating each other

2297
01:20:47,110 --> 01:20:43,600
yeah and one of the reasons why you know

2298
01:20:50,070 --> 01:20:47,120
that ever expanding circle of inclusion

2299
01:20:52,950 --> 01:20:50,080
and concern that i mentioned earlier

2300
01:20:54,790 --> 01:20:52,960
arises is not just because you know you

2301
01:20:56,629 --> 01:20:54,800
just become more caring

2302
01:20:59,030 --> 01:20:56,639
but just

2303
01:21:00,790 --> 01:20:59,040
as you know kind of a calculated

2304
01:21:02,229 --> 01:21:00,800
understanding you realize for instance

2305
01:21:04,310 --> 01:21:02,239
with global warming and whatnot and

2306
01:21:06,149 --> 01:21:04,320
climate that what happens in one part of

2307
01:21:07,910 --> 01:21:06,159
the world has direct effect on what

2308
01:21:10,149 --> 01:21:07,920
happens somewhere else and that you

2309
01:21:12,390 --> 01:21:10,159
realize the only way we can solve a

2310
01:21:14,629 --> 01:21:12,400
problem like that is by coming together

2311
01:21:16,790 --> 01:21:14,639
and agreeing and while some people will

2312
01:21:18,070 --> 01:21:16,800
rally against the idea of globalism and

2313
01:21:19,189 --> 01:21:18,080
you know as some sort of control

2314
01:21:20,709 --> 01:21:19,199
structure meant to take away our

2315
01:21:22,709 --> 01:21:20,719
individual freedoms and i understand

2316
01:21:25,110 --> 01:21:22,719
some of the concerns there right

2317
01:21:27,110 --> 01:21:25,120
again i see validity on all sides

2318
01:21:28,790 --> 01:21:27,120
usually i can see some validity in the

2319
01:21:30,310 --> 01:21:28,800
different points of view

2320
01:21:32,310 --> 01:21:30,320
but at the same time

2321
01:21:33,590 --> 01:21:32,320
if we just isolate and say each group

2322
01:21:36,950 --> 01:21:33,600
gets to do what they want and what they

2323
01:21:39,510 --> 01:21:36,960
think is right you know we may you know

2324
01:21:41,510 --> 01:21:39,520
not have much of a planet left to uh

2325
01:21:43,270 --> 01:21:41,520
to live within not to mention the

2326
01:21:44,950 --> 01:21:43,280
responsibility we have for all the

2327
01:21:48,310 --> 01:21:44,960
animal species

2328
01:21:49,910 --> 01:21:48,320
and whatnot the rest of the biosphere

2329
01:21:51,189 --> 01:21:49,920
another thing that occurs to me too is

2330
01:21:53,030 --> 01:21:51,199
that

2331
01:21:54,950 --> 01:21:53,040
sometimes or often we're very

2332
01:21:57,350 --> 01:21:54,960
comfortable saying change needs to

2333
01:21:58,709 --> 01:21:57,360
happen right we need to move towards

2334
01:22:00,550 --> 01:21:58,719
something that's

2335
01:22:02,790 --> 01:22:00,560
like vastly different than it is now

2336
01:22:06,149 --> 01:22:02,800
it's not just a fine-tuning we need to

2337
01:22:09,189 --> 01:22:06,159
completely revamp how we do

2338
01:22:11,270 --> 01:22:09,199
civilization right

2339
01:22:12,310 --> 01:22:11,280
many people are willing to say that

2340
01:22:14,070 --> 01:22:12,320
a much

2341
01:22:15,750 --> 01:22:14,080
smaller group of people are willing to

2342
01:22:17,669 --> 01:22:15,760
be the pioneers

2343
01:22:19,990 --> 01:22:17,679
in those difficult transition times

2344
01:22:21,830 --> 01:22:20,000
where you have to begin from the ground

2345
01:22:23,430 --> 01:22:21,840
up you have to strip down everything you

2346
01:22:25,430 --> 01:22:23,440
have had

2347
01:22:26,629 --> 01:22:25,440
we in the west have become

2348
01:22:28,070 --> 01:22:26,639
you know very comfortable with our

2349
01:22:29,350 --> 01:22:28,080
material goods

2350
01:22:32,070 --> 01:22:29,360
our comfort

2351
01:22:35,590 --> 01:22:34,070
we have certain expectations of how

2352
01:22:38,709 --> 01:22:35,600
comfortable our life will be and a

2353
01:22:40,629 --> 01:22:38,719
certain kind of repetition of our uh

2354
01:22:43,669 --> 01:22:40,639
you know our schedule

2355
01:22:46,149 --> 01:22:43,679
and how much are we willing to have that

2356
01:22:48,229 --> 01:22:46,159
impacted directly us and our children

2357
01:22:50,310 --> 01:22:48,239
and our grandchildren in order to

2358
01:22:52,870 --> 01:22:50,320
potentially build something new

2359
01:22:54,550 --> 01:22:52,880
um that's that's part of this whole

2360
01:22:56,870 --> 01:22:54,560
question around

2361
01:22:58,070 --> 01:22:56,880
how far along really are we in terms of

2362
01:23:01,110 --> 01:22:58,080
a um

2363
01:23:03,510 --> 01:23:01,120
a non-dual kind of perspective can we

2364
01:23:06,390 --> 01:23:03,520
be willing to be the first pioneers you

2365
01:23:08,310 --> 01:23:06,400
know

2366
01:23:10,390 --> 01:23:08,320
moving on to the the

2367
01:23:12,229 --> 01:23:10,400
the fresh territory where it's just

2368
01:23:13,990 --> 01:23:12,239
really hard work and it's grunt work

2369
01:23:16,070 --> 01:23:14,000
maybe for your entire life you know

2370
01:23:16,870 --> 01:23:16,080
before you build up something new

2371
01:23:18,870 --> 01:23:16,880
and

2372
01:23:20,550 --> 01:23:18,880
that kind of calculation you see it

2373
01:23:21,910 --> 01:23:20,560
happening all the time in our culture

2374
01:23:23,350 --> 01:23:21,920
when we have politicians that are

2375
01:23:25,590 --> 01:23:23,360
elected for four

2376
01:23:27,750 --> 01:23:25,600
year terms then usually what they're

2377
01:23:29,990 --> 01:23:27,760
most concerned with is what they can

2378
01:23:31,590 --> 01:23:30,000
convince you they can do in one two

2379
01:23:33,110 --> 01:23:31,600
three years and then they're already

2380
01:23:34,550 --> 01:23:33,120
thinking about the next election cycle

2381
01:23:36,470 --> 01:23:34,560
right so

2382
01:23:38,470 --> 01:23:36,480
the nature of reality

2383
01:23:40,470 --> 01:23:38,480
doesn't run on four-year cycles but our

2384
01:23:42,950 --> 01:23:40,480
political system currently does

2385
01:23:47,030 --> 01:23:44,390
but how much of that are we willing to

2386
01:23:48,709 --> 01:23:47,040
revamp and go through the the complexity

2387
01:23:50,070 --> 01:23:48,719
and the chaos of that revamping where

2388
01:23:51,510 --> 01:23:50,080
you tear down a structure before you

2389
01:23:52,870 --> 01:23:51,520
build something new

2390
01:23:55,430 --> 01:23:52,880
that's a question i think we all have to

2391
01:23:56,790 --> 01:23:55,440
ask ourselves um

2392
01:23:58,870 --> 01:23:56,800
and

2393
01:24:00,870 --> 01:23:58,880
it's something that involves

2394
01:24:02,950 --> 01:24:00,880
sacrifice you know personal sacrifice as

2395
01:24:05,030 --> 01:24:02,960
well as collective sacrifice

2396
01:24:06,229 --> 01:24:05,040
and and maybe that's even what some of

2397
01:24:07,750 --> 01:24:06,239
these others i mean i'm pretty sure

2398
01:24:09,189 --> 01:24:07,760
that's partly what they're saying is

2399
01:24:12,870 --> 01:24:09,199
trying to point

2400
01:24:15,350 --> 01:24:12,880
out our hypocrisy and uh the small way

2401
01:24:16,470 --> 01:24:15,360
we live our lives um and like i said

2402
01:24:18,629 --> 01:24:16,480
with that

2403
01:24:19,990 --> 01:24:18,639
political science teacher the sociology

2404
01:24:22,550 --> 01:24:20,000
teacher earlier

2405
01:24:24,390 --> 01:24:22,560
again by them showing up that in itself

2406
01:24:26,629 --> 01:24:24,400
makes us ask new questions it makes us

2407
01:24:28,870 --> 01:24:26,639
see ourselves differently makes us see

2408
01:24:31,270 --> 01:24:28,880
ourselves as human beings rather than

2409
01:24:33,590 --> 01:24:31,280
republicans or democrats or you know

2410
01:24:34,709 --> 01:24:33,600
north americans or africans or whatever

2411
01:24:37,430 --> 01:24:34,719
um

2412
01:24:39,990 --> 01:24:37,440
yeah big questions and i i really

2413
01:24:41,430 --> 01:24:40,000
encourage all of us to

2414
01:24:43,110 --> 01:24:41,440
think hard about how much we would be

2415
01:24:45,110 --> 01:24:43,120
willing to sacrifice

2416
01:24:47,110 --> 01:24:45,120
to solve some of the problems that exist

2417
01:24:48,629 --> 01:24:47,120
because if we only opt for

2418
01:24:50,950 --> 01:24:48,639
options that

2419
01:24:52,550 --> 01:24:50,960
supposedly bring about solutions without

2420
01:24:53,990 --> 01:24:52,560
changing any of the current dynamics in

2421
01:24:55,990 --> 01:24:54,000
any major way

2422
01:24:58,390 --> 01:24:56,000
i'm reminded of what einstein said where

2423
01:24:59,669 --> 01:24:58,400
he said you can never solve a current

2424
01:25:00,870 --> 01:24:59,679
problem from the same level of

2425
01:25:02,470 --> 01:25:00,880
consciousness

2426
01:25:08,709 --> 01:25:02,480
that developed it in the first place i

2427
01:25:13,910 --> 01:25:10,709
so willa said you know this reminds me

2428
01:25:15,510 --> 01:25:13,920
of just relationships and how you know

2429
01:25:18,070 --> 01:25:15,520
as you pointed out what are you willing

2430
01:25:19,510 --> 01:25:18,080
to to sacrifice what are you willing to

2431
01:25:21,110 --> 01:25:19,520
do to

2432
01:25:24,790 --> 01:25:21,120
repair the breach

2433
01:25:26,550 --> 01:25:24,800
you know to to break new ground um and

2434
01:25:28,070 --> 01:25:26,560
and i you know i see the parallels

2435
01:25:30,470 --> 01:25:28,080
directly with

2436
01:25:32,470 --> 01:25:30,480
uh the the this top this topic of

2437
01:25:34,470 --> 01:25:32,480
conversation you know the the notion of

2438
01:25:36,629 --> 01:25:34,480
disagreement you know what are you

2439
01:25:37,990 --> 01:25:36,639
willing how vulnerable are you willing

2440
01:25:38,870 --> 01:25:38,000
to be

2441
01:25:44,070 --> 01:25:38,880
to

2442
01:25:46,070 --> 01:25:44,080
a new understanding you know so

2443
01:25:47,750 --> 01:25:46,080
disagreements are i think healthy

2444
01:25:51,189 --> 01:25:47,760
they're very good they

2445
01:25:53,510 --> 01:25:51,199
uh often you know spark

2446
01:25:56,709 --> 01:25:53,520
you know new insights

2447
01:25:59,270 --> 01:25:56,719
and you know i think a healthy community

2448
01:26:02,229 --> 01:25:59,280
does have space and has made space

2449
01:26:05,270 --> 01:26:02,239
for people to express different opinions

2450
01:26:09,510 --> 01:26:05,280
but we do also need to encourage this

2451
01:26:12,070 --> 01:26:09,520
notion of of growth and sacrifice and

2452
01:26:14,870 --> 01:26:12,080
vulnerability because that

2453
01:26:15,830 --> 01:26:14,880
is a catalyst for change

2454
01:26:18,390 --> 01:26:15,840
and

2455
01:26:19,590 --> 01:26:18,400
you know i i have this mental image of

2456
01:26:22,310 --> 01:26:19,600
not only

2457
01:26:25,110 --> 01:26:22,320
the pioneers amongst us who may have to

2458
01:26:26,950 --> 01:26:25,120
you know make these sacrifices uh in

2459
01:26:30,070 --> 01:26:26,960
this new reality

2460
01:26:32,229 --> 01:26:30,080
but but those from from the other side

2461
01:26:34,790 --> 01:26:32,239
you know who may have to make their own

2462
01:26:36,470 --> 01:26:34,800
sacrifices to kind of reach out and and

2463
01:26:39,669 --> 01:26:36,480
bring us along

2464
01:26:41,030 --> 01:26:39,679
uh so you know this is very much i would

2465
01:26:44,310 --> 01:26:41,040
hope at least

2466
01:26:46,950 --> 01:26:44,320
is a a two-way street here that it is

2467
01:26:48,870 --> 01:26:46,960
highly relational that just as we are

2468
01:26:51,030 --> 01:26:48,880
willing to be changed they are willing

2469
01:26:53,270 --> 01:26:51,040
to be changed

2470
01:26:54,070 --> 01:26:53,280
in service of something

2471
01:26:56,390 --> 01:26:54,080
more

2472
01:26:58,070 --> 01:26:56,400
of of a new way of understanding a new

2473
01:27:00,229 --> 01:26:58,080
way of being

2474
01:27:02,310 --> 01:27:00,239
that is the

2475
01:27:04,550 --> 01:27:02,320
not only kind of the transformative

2476
01:27:06,709 --> 01:27:04,560
quality of genuine relationship but it's

2477
01:27:09,110 --> 01:27:06,719
the transformative power

2478
01:27:12,470 --> 01:27:09,120
of what this represents

2479
01:27:14,870 --> 01:27:12,480
uh this is a the the dawn of a new way

2480
01:27:18,149 --> 01:27:14,880
of being in the world

2481
01:27:21,750 --> 01:27:18,159
and it impacts us on an individual a

2482
01:27:22,709 --> 01:27:21,760
familial a societal a global you know

2483
01:27:23,830 --> 01:27:22,719
level

2484
01:27:25,990 --> 01:27:23,840
um

2485
01:27:27,830 --> 01:27:26,000
and and it's exciting you know

2486
01:27:28,950 --> 01:27:27,840
you know again whether it happens uh

2487
01:27:31,669 --> 01:27:28,960
tomorrow

2488
01:27:34,229 --> 01:27:31,679
uh or a decade or you know in in future

2489
01:27:35,750 --> 01:27:34,239
lifetimes i i think we would you know

2490
01:27:38,310 --> 01:27:35,760
agree that

2491
01:27:39,350 --> 01:27:38,320
you know it's going to happen on some

2492
01:27:43,030 --> 01:27:39,360
level

2493
01:27:43,830 --> 01:27:43,040
that eventually this barrier will break

2494
01:27:47,189 --> 01:27:43,840
and

2495
01:27:48,870 --> 01:27:47,199
that new that new world will arrive

2496
01:27:51,189 --> 01:27:48,880
well said that's a great note to finish

2497
01:27:55,030 --> 01:27:53,270
yeah with that said so uh we again

2498
01:27:57,030 --> 01:27:55,040
really appreciate uh

2499
01:27:57,830 --> 01:27:57,040
all of our listeners

2500
01:28:02,790 --> 01:27:57,840
i

2501
01:28:05,669 --> 01:28:02,800
you've shared

2502
01:28:06,870 --> 01:28:05,679
the show and mentioned it to others uh

2503
01:28:10,709 --> 01:28:06,880
that the times that you've made a

2504
01:28:14,149 --> 01:28:10,719
comment or uh responded uh on twitter or

2505
01:28:16,629 --> 01:28:14,159
on youtube or even on reddit i saw some

2506
01:28:19,350 --> 01:28:16,639
some posts there so a shout out to all

2507
01:28:23,030 --> 01:28:19,360
the folks that have given our our show

2508
01:28:24,950 --> 01:28:23,040
a chance and are following along um

2509
01:28:27,350 --> 01:28:24,960
i can say personally that this has been

2510
01:28:31,990 --> 01:28:27,360
an incredibly meaningful uh journey for

2511
01:28:34,950 --> 01:28:32,000
me uh to have these conversations um

2512
01:28:35,990 --> 01:28:34,960
with you exo and with this community and

2513
01:28:37,590 --> 01:28:36,000
uh

2514
01:28:40,229 --> 01:28:37,600
we look forward to seeing where it will

2515
01:28:42,629 --> 01:28:40,239
go uh we do think that there's a lot of

2516
01:28:46,070 --> 01:28:42,639
a lot of ground left to cover here a lot

2517
01:28:48,709 --> 01:28:46,080
of uh discovery left to be had

2518
01:28:51,430 --> 01:28:48,719
um and with that said as we close

2519
01:28:54,070 --> 01:28:51,440
may the quality of our questions shaped

2520
01:28:57,110 --> 01:28:54,080
by a desire for understanding

2521
01:28:59,030 --> 01:28:57,120
enhance our journey of discovery

2522
01:29:01,189 --> 01:28:59,040
and may our travels broaden the sphere

2523
01:29:04,870 --> 01:29:01,199
of our consciousness reminding us that

2524
01:29:06,470 --> 01:29:04,880
new discoveries beget new horizons

2525
01:29:08,390 --> 01:29:06,480
as always

2526
01:29:10,310 --> 01:29:08,400
adventure awaits

2527
01:29:14,400 --> 01:29:10,320
we'll see y'all next time on liminal

2528
01:29:18,200 --> 01:29:16,630
[Music]

2529
01:29:24,500 --> 01:29:18,210
[Laughter]